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Post by woodyz on Apr 3, 2015 21:53:13 GMT -7
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Post by angelhelp on Apr 4, 2015 7:25:40 GMT -7
Not having checked the links, I wonder if they take into account mental illness (in any form) as influencing the facial expression?
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Post by sirderrin on Apr 4, 2015 7:52:27 GMT -7
The eyes can tell you a fair amount but body language over all is a more accurate picture to me...
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Post by cajunlady87 on Apr 4, 2015 8:02:01 GMT -7
The eyes can tell you a fair amount but body language over all is a more accurate picture to me... Great post! I like watching and reading about "true crime". I have read and heard it mentioned many times by LEO's that if they're confronting a perp they concentrate their attention on their eyes to give them a hint of a possible next move. We have veterans of the military and LEO's who could probably correct me if I'm wrong or at least add more to my statement.
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Post by USCGME2 on Apr 4, 2015 21:37:00 GMT -7
The eyes can tell you a fair amount but body language over all is a more accurate picture to me... Great post! I like watching and reading about "true crime". I have read and heard it mentioned many times by LEO's that if they're confronting a perp they concentrate their attention on their eyes to give them a hint of a possible next move. We have veterans of the military and LEO's who could probably correct me if I'm wrong or at least add more to my statement. I interview criminals all day nearly everyday. In my 20+ year career, I have done tens of thousands of offender interviews. Some short and to the point, others very in depth and probing. More than not, I come away with a lot more information than they want me to. Wether they know it or not. It is all about behavioral clusters. Emotions are harder to pin down than deception is. Worried and sad can look a lot alike. High on meth and excited can appear similar. Emotions are very subjective that way. The eyes are only one clue. Kinetic eye movement can tell you alot but, its about taking in clues from all over. IMO, its all about induced stress in the individual that creates verbal and non-verbal cues. A calm person who does not feel any stress lying (esp. sociopaths) can be very difficult to interview but, even they can be defeated by playing to the ego. However, most people who are "guilty" and are trying to convince you otherwise give all sorts of verbal and non-verbal information. Bottom line, most people are crappy liars. As to the next move they could make, I always watch the hands. No one to date has ever tried to hit me with their eye! Lol that said, when they get that glazed look in the eyes, its time to watch out and be ready. Whats fun is when I point out what their tell is. One would think it would allow them to control it but, they end up amplifying it trying not to do it and stumble all over themselves in the end. I love it when that happens. Sometimes, it just about noting a change in someone. I had one guy come in with a stupid looking mohawk haircut. This was quite different from how he looked the week before. I said to him, "Tim I see your doing heroin again." Sheepish reply: "What? No sir." Uhh, "Yes you are." ....... "How did you know?" "Tim, who gave you that stupid haircut? I'll bet it was the same person who didn't teach you to lie very well too." Despite all I have learned over the years about "reading people" I am an infant compared to some detectives and investigators I know. They are goooood! My old boxing coach was the detective who caught the South Side Rapist - Dennis Rabbet. He raped dozens of women in the St. Louis area and got caught finally in the late 90's. Randy, my coach, got him to admit to everything. His disarming smile, calm voice, and genteel demeanor got him to open up completely. You'd never know that guy had a such a serious uppercut!
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Post by graf on Apr 5, 2015 4:45:58 GMT -7
Body language and gut instinct have always served me pretty well plus many wear sunglasses so relying on emotion in the eyes goes out the window
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Post by cajunlady87 on Apr 5, 2015 5:46:07 GMT -7
Great post! I like watching and reading about "true crime". I have read and heard it mentioned many times by LEO's that if they're confronting a perp they concentrate their attention on their eyes to give them a hint of a possible next move. We have veterans of the military and LEO's who could probably correct me if I'm wrong or at least add more to my statement. I interview criminals all day nearly everyday. In my 20+ year career, I have done tens of thousands of offender interviews. Some short and to the point, others very in depth and probing. More than not, I come away with a lot more information than they want me to. Wether they know it or not. It is all about behavioral clusters. Emotions are harder to pin down than deception is. Worried and sad can look a lot alike. High on meth and excited can appear similar. Emotions are very subjective that way. The eyes are only one clue. Kinetic eye movement can tell you alot but, its about taking in clues from all over. IMO, its all about induced stress in the individual that creates verbal and non-verbal cues. A calm person who does not feel any stress lying (esp. sociopaths) can be very difficult to interview but, even they can be defeated by playing to the ego. However, most people who are "guilty" and are trying to convince you otherwise give all sorts of verbal and non-verbal information. Bottom line, most people are crappy liars. As to the next move they could make, I always watch the hands. No one to date has ever tried to hit me with their eye! Lol that said, when they get that glazed look in the eyes, its time to watch out and be ready. Whats fun is when I point out what their tell is. One would think it would allow them to control it but, they end up amplifying it trying not to do it and stumble all over themselves in the end. I love it when that happens. Sometimes, it just about noting a change in someone. I had one guy come in with a stupid looking mohawk haircut. This was quite different from how he looked the week before. I said to him, "Tim I see your doing heroin again." Sheepish reply: "What? No sir." Uhh, "Yes you are." ....... "How did you know?" "Tim, who gave you that stupid haircut? I'll bet it was the same person who didn't teach you to lie very well too." Despite all I have learned over the years about "reading people" I am an infant compared to some detectives and investigators I know. They are goooood! My old boxing coach was the detective who caught the South Side Rapist - Dennis Rabbet. He raped dozens of women in the St. Louis area and got caught finally in the late 90's. Randy, my coach, got him to admit to everything. His disarming smile, calm voice, and genteel demeanor got him to open up completely. You'd never know that guy had a such a serious uppercut! What another great post this is. Thank you so very much for taking the time to type this out as it was so interesting to read. I know I missed my calling, I should've been a homicide detective. Some people like your coach Randy have an extra sense of being able to perform certain tasks others have problems doing and that my friend tells you he definitely answered his calling. Those people are hard to come by, it's an inbred skill he's very good at and through the years he sharpened them more.
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Post by woodyz on Apr 5, 2015 12:05:08 GMT -7
in "spy" school we were taught techniques to defeat interactions and a lie detector. so catching some one using those techniques in reverse was easier.
at the same time i will say, as with most "skills", the more you do the better you get
learning to ask the same questions at different times will catch a liar
learning to ask the same question using different words works too
ever take a psycho test? in reality there may be 90 questions, but only 30 are unique, 60 are asking the same 30 questions in different words. they are really looking for consistency. there is no right or wrong answer, just trends of consistency or inconsistency.
the eyes are a good tool to learn, but only one tool to have in your tool box
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Post by sirderrin on Apr 5, 2015 12:30:29 GMT -7
in "spy" school we were taught techniques to defeat interactions and a lie detector. so catching some one using those techniques in reverse was easier. at the same time i will say, as with most "skills", the more you do the better you get learning to ask the same questions at different times will catch a liar learning to ask the same question using different words works too ever take a psycho test? in reality there may be 90 questions, but only 30 are unique, 60 are asking the same 30 questions in different words. they are really looking for consistency. there is no right or wrong answer, just trends of consistency or inconsistency. the eyes are a good tool to learn, but only one tool to have in your tool box I hate physco test lol.. I once took one that was 300 questions....
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Post by woodyz on Apr 5, 2015 13:13:13 GMT -7
no it was only 100 questions asked three different ways. but you are right I did hate taking them, and I have taken many of them and many of them were very long. now think about that a minute woodyz passed not one but many psycho tests that must blow your mind
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Post by thywar on Apr 5, 2015 13:35:41 GMT -7
So passing a psycho test means you're successfully a psycho or the other way around?
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Post by USCGME2 on Apr 5, 2015 13:40:31 GMT -7
@woody; Today's polygraphs are much more sophisticated than before. While not infallible, they are pretty accurate. We make sex offenders take them regularly. The gal that does the tests catches them being deceptive all the time and says she can almost always detect when they try to obfuscate the exam. She says the instruments measure physiological factors that simply cant be controlled. The fact she was a detective in sex crimes prior to this gig helps out too. The saying goes, your mouth can be made to say anything but, the body does not lie. Again, they are not perfect but, experienced poly examiners with good equipment are tough to beat.
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Post by woodyz on Apr 5, 2015 13:59:19 GMT -7
So passing a psycho test means you're successfully a psycho or the other way around? I already told you its all in the consistency, it doesn't matter if you tell the truth or NOT it only matters that you are consistent with your answer. it is inconsistency that fails.
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Post by sirderrin on Apr 5, 2015 14:00:07 GMT -7
no it was only 100 questions asked three different ways. but you are right I did hate taking them, and I have taken many of them and many of them were very long. now think about that a minute woodyz passed not one but many psycho tests that must blow your mind That is very true... The real fun started when they dropped me into a room with a pair of "psychologists" who was trying to verbally trip ya into saying things by using certain "slang terms" When I started laughing after about 2 minute they looked surprised... They asked me why I was laughing and I told them they where poor actors and the trash they was spewing was funny in a warped way.... I actually turned down the job offer that came from that interview because I decided I liked my humanity as it was and I did not wish to go into a profession that required that much tolerance of stupidity.... I have taken about 6 of those type test over the years... The first one was actually in Navy boot camp...
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Post by woodyz on Apr 5, 2015 14:09:41 GMT -7
@woody; Today's polygraphs are much more sophisticated than before. While not infallible, they are pretty accurate. We make sex offenders take them regularly. The gal that does the tests catches them being deceptive all the time and says she can almost always detect when they try to obfuscate the exam. She says the instruments measure physiological factors that simply cant be controlled. The fact she was a detective in sex crimes prior to this gig helps out too. The saying goes, your mouth can be made to say anything but, the body does not lie. Again, they are not perfect but, experienced poly examiners with good equipment are tough to beat. didn't i tell you i have a nuclear clearance with a 6 level sigma attachment? i still have to take a lie detector and psycho test every year. I could tell you how to still beat it and it is so simple, but i cannot do it. i can tell you that the truth can set you free. have you ever stole anything? Well yes, I once stole quarters from my poor Mother, it makes me so ashamed. Have you stole anything recently? Recently? no, no ofcourse not, not after that, never. guilt is guilt, emotion is emotion. Tell the truth with emotion and quilt. just sayin'
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