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Post by mud on Nov 25, 2012 18:48:44 GMT -7
When I shot my doe the other day I was wearing a 3 day pack and dressed in coveralls with orange hat and vest, long johns, insulated boots and cold weather gloves. The pack contained my 1911, 3 extra mags, fire starting gear, SOG government model, first aid supplies, a pack of beef jerky, two 20oz water bottles, poncho liner, cordage, one box of 270 shells, compass, note pad and paper.
The doe was 90lbs.
Due to the terrain I could not carry or drag the deer up the 185ft bluff that runs the entire length of my property let alone across the numerous rocks and fallen trees that litter the now clear cut land. When I decided to walk out and borrow an atv I shed my coveralls and tied them to the pack, remove my pistol and attach it to my belt and put one bottle of water in my pocket.
In a very short time I had to stop and rest my burning legs. I ended up stopping every 30 feet or so as I made my way up and ended up using the butt of my 270 as a walking stick. I usually carry a hiking pole but forgot it that day.
What I learned is that not only am I way out of shape again, but also, if I had been carrying the bug out load I have packed travel by foot would be extremely slow for me and probably near impossible to sustain for my family with their bags. I have been struggling with what to sacrifice in terms of weight. Water and firearm and water being the top three in weight yet crucial to survival, all I can think to do is limit them. We all know that if we bug out on foot weight becomes an issue. Even if we start out in a vehicle or on a bicycle sooner or later we will be on foot. There is no way we can carry everything we need/want in our packs. Using a cache is an option but only viable if you are able to retrieve the contents.
So the solution I came up with is skills+knowledge. I will be trimming down my packs and focusing on what I cannot readily make but still have the ability to make use of items found or salvaged. I have a ton of work to do. My new loads will be focused on water, weapons, ammo and tools with a minimum of food.
I hate finding problems with something you were happy with but testing is the only sure way to know what does and does not work.
The other thing I thought I would mention is the addition of clothing. When you are dressed for cold weather, even in layers, general movement and tasks become harder. I had no problems carrying this same pack with the only change being a Henry 22 for the 270 and the water bottles for a metal GI canteen- during my squirrel hunting trips in warmer weather.
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Post by swamprat1 on Nov 25, 2012 19:10:41 GMT -7
I think you are touching on a very important subject mud. There was another thread that was posted a couple months or so back about a similar topic. Based off of what I could do a year and a half ago, I could cover about 5 miles an hour with a 45lb pack and could keep this up the better part of the day. Since then, I am no longer in the military and for the last 6 months I have been driving a forklift at a lumber yard. Needless to say my activity level has dropped tremendously. I found out just how bad yesterday. While camping with the family we decided to go for a walk. The area we camped at is on the Natchez Trace parkway and there are many historic sites around. One of these sites was about 3/4 of a mile from camp and mostly up hill on a paved road. My wife, who has been going to the gym for a month now made the walk with no issues. By the time we got to the top my legs were feeling it hard and my back was starting to hurt. Starting in January when I am done with this job I will be starting a new workout plan.
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Post by offtrail on Nov 25, 2012 19:51:32 GMT -7
Nothing you take out of that pack or leave at home will ever replace staying in shape It's so important for people to stay as fit as possible, even more so for us older folk. Staying in shape doesn't have to be all that hard. Just going for a walk does wonders, but keep track of how far you go and the time it took you to finish your walk. Then little by little add more time and distance to your walks. It's that simple, the old saying if you don't use it you lose it, is so very true. Get a check up first if in doubt about your health, if it all checks out then go for it.
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Post by mud on Nov 25, 2012 23:27:09 GMT -7
OT I totally agree about the substitute for fitness. I started tonight on my Total Gym and tomorrow will start jogging. I am in good health other than my bum leg and hope it holds up but I suspect it will do fine once the initial acclimation period is over. My ortho told me I would never be 100% and I agree after a few years and figuring out just what my limitations of movement are due to muscle loss (cut out) and nerve damage. I also believe it is just another obstacle to overcome on my road to recovery. I can and have run short distances around the yard with the dogs and kids but not for extended periods. I will post on another section and keep updating the progress.
The idea of the thread though is what is really important to carry should you bug out or INCH out. Bugging out assumes at some point a return to base after a stay in a secure location for whatever reason. INCH assumes you leave with what you have and may or may not be able to replenish supplies whether you become a nomad or establish a retreat. If you are only going for three to five days you in theory need less ammo and supplies than INCH. If you have to INCH out, the amount of ammo, choice of weapons to carry will impact what other supplies you are able to carry on your person. As stated before, no matter how you leave, eventually you will walk. That brings up shoes or boots. Extras will be needed as there is no guarantee of replacement in the near future. Sure you could make something for your feet or repair yours but problems with your most reliable form of transportation(feet) could be catastrophic.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2012 0:01:11 GMT -7
I am screwed.
2 spinal surgeries, shoulder reconstruction, and even though I have lost 50# since June 1, I am still over 200...I quit smoking in 2008, but my lungs are still in trouble...I was fully dressed in camo, long unders, etc. and packing my rifle. I shot that big buck and at over 150# before gutting him out, I was only able to drag him a max of about 20 yards before I had to rest. I had to take a 5 minute breather and moved him about another 10 yards and my back snapped sounding like a shotgun going off (took half an hour to get over) and that was all she wrote.
I have no problem packing 30# on my back over rough terrain at a slow & steady walk for quite a long ways as long as it is balanced and the shoulder straps are not biting into my shoulder...but if I get in a hurry, or have to drag something...I am in trouble.
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Post by blacksmith on Nov 26, 2012 2:43:56 GMT -7
50# most day all day 100# 1/2 I know I can do with a bad hart hips and back I still work 3 to 5 days a week cutting wood and hard work that is why I can still do it
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Post by Redneckidokie on Nov 26, 2012 2:46:37 GMT -7
A'nnnnd there it is. Reality sets in. We're all gonna die with in 100 yards of the house, under a huge pile of our 'stuff', strapped to our backs. LOL Welcome to my world....ha ha, in the last month of deer hunting, I just knew several times I was going to die, I was having so much fun. Dink, I feel your pain.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2012 4:28:02 GMT -7
A'nnnnd there it is. Reality sets in. We're all gonna die with in 100 yards of the house, under a huge pile of our 'stuff', strapped to our backs. LOL Welcome to my world....ha ha, in the last month of deer hunting, I just knew several times I was going to die, I was having so much fun. Dink, I feel your pain. Yup!!! So much pain I thought I would die...but you can bet your sweet patootie I was smiling the ENTIRE time!!! Pleasure in the pain...the treck to the end of the driveway is gonna kill me! LOL!! Glad someone out there understands! ;D
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Post by geron on Nov 26, 2012 4:41:46 GMT -7
Last trip in I had 28#'s. Six miles (mostly up hill) and my legs were trembling. Took about 3 hours for that 6 miles. Can you say "BUG IN?"
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Post by WILL on Nov 26, 2012 6:30:39 GMT -7
I'm a back-packer. I really don‘t care to pack more than 40#, and I can defiantly see my body changing as I age. I'm 42 now. I'd say I have another 8 years of hard work in me before I have to change my ways. Either way, if you haven’t considered a bicycle as a survival tool, start now. I would suggest an aluminum beach cruiser style unless you live in the mountains. The simpler the bicycle, the better IMHO.
Great point about triaging gear. As far as BOB/INCH bags, I think it’s a big mistake to triage off essential gear and rely on skills to fill the gap. Never carry inadequate shelter (clothing, sleep system, tent/hammock/tarp), food or water. Never forget that the elements will kill you faster than almost anything else in the woods. Two or three near freezing, rainy days can end you if you skimped on shelter. Rain happens all the time, we just don’t notice it so much because we live in dry, cozy buildings. Personally, I think the key is technology. They are making camping gear smaller, lighter and more efficient every year. The more advanced stuff costs $$$$, but if backpacking is your thing, its well worth it.
As far as the guns go, there will be some real tough choices to be made for a long distance bug out on foot. While shotguns, assault rifles, main battle rifles and 1911s are great tools for survival in a disaster, the .22LR is the king of the long distance bug-out by foot. The weapon and ammo weight of center fires simply rules most of them out for long distance traveling on foot.
I also think people need to change the way they think about traveling by foot. You have to get out of the time-line/dead-line mentality. If you can only travel 3 miles a day, so be it. If you need to take a day or three off from traveling, it is what it is. The important thing isn’t getting there on a dead-line, it’s getting there alive. Bring the gear you need to get that done and let the traveling get done at the pace the situation dictates.
Also, the way you do things would obviously have to change in a disaster. In stead of you trying to drag a 110# deer miles back to camp by yourself, in a SHTF we may have to employ a hunting party to split the load. Having a game cart or similar load hauling tool would be a huge benefit. If it’s just you, consider moving your camp to the shot deer in stead of vice versa. Same with hauling firewood, water, etc.
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Post by marc on Nov 26, 2012 8:12:57 GMT -7
You make some good points, Will.
At 59, I've learned that setting the right pace is critical for me. My days of carrying a 42# backpack comfortably for 10-15 miles per day above treeline, are long gone! (42# was the exact weight for a week in the Sierra's with lots of clean spring water available in the area)
Lifting/stacking 160# batteries isn't a problem yet. But, over the last three years, lifting 70 in a day became 50, became 30....... What I feel is my endurance going away.
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Post by pathwinder14 on Nov 26, 2012 10:43:39 GMT -7
I can comfortably carry 45# all day. However it sucks. I can't run very fast/far. It makes me top heavy and going up/down hills is a pain. All the scree is a death trap. For that sake I specifically make my bags 25# or less (including food and water). I then carry any additional weight in my cargo pockets or in belt pouches. Spreading out the weight improves my over all performance and allows greater distances to be covered. I can run and move without issue.
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Post by missasip on Nov 26, 2012 16:12:21 GMT -7
This is a subject I have struggled with a bunch the last two years. From the late '60s through the mid '80s I was an avid hiker/packer. Been all over Yosemite, Kings Canyon National Park, Teton National Forrest and others. I could have a 30# day pack, rifle and sidearm and go all day and never hardly checkup.
One of my jobs for about 2 years at the utility company was reading meters. Avg'd 4-7 miles a day, every day. It was the best job I ever had for staying in shape. When I went to line work that is where it started heading downhill. As far as climbing poles went I was in good shape. But they wear your hips and knees out....bucket trucks aren't any better. Then when I went to local operations, though I still climbed some and did bucket work, I stayed in a pickup all day.
All these years the cigs were killing me. Stopped in Feb. '08...too late. Ya'll know the rest..
Then I got this simple little job and it has turned me around. It has enough exercise to get me headed back in the right direction. Lost 47 lbs. since January this year. My walking is coming back!
I can't wait to have another pack trip with Xwing. I struggled beyond belief with him and his son last year. I'll be a different story this year!!!
Ain't nowhere near where I want or need to be, but it's a work in progress. I have even started back dancing some, so that will help too!
Good thread.
Jimmy
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Post by marc on Nov 26, 2012 16:35:17 GMT -7
................................................. Lost 47 lbs. since January this year. My walking is coming back!................................ Jimmy Now THAT'S good to hear - and one heck of an achievement! Marc
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Post by offtrail on Nov 26, 2012 16:57:51 GMT -7
I couldn't agree more mud,all good points. I've never took the time to down size my pack. Something I will have to consider and plan for. This will take some time. I'm going to a weekend camp out December 7th I will be checking out there sleeping systems to see what might work in an extended bugout situation.
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