Survival firearms and their purpose

[Cwi555]

The subject of firearms and their uses for survival tends to turn up the Ire factor for some folks. There are all kinds of people on various forums ranging from Mall Ninjas, wanna be Rambo's, Wanna be gunsmiths, etc.

There are also multiple right answers when it comes to choosing a firearm for survival. Therein is part of the problem. A firearm for 'survival'.

Many have it in their heads that they need the latest tacticool rambo mall ninja zombie killer. These people have watched to many movies in my opinion.

The point of survival is survival. Participating in running gun battles and raids significantly reduces your odds of survival. Unlike the A team television series where hundreds of rounds are fired and no one is killed, a real gun battle usually ends in someone being shot and or killed. A bullet doesn't care which way it's going, it has no brain, no thoughts, no heart, nor a movie script. If you shoot at someone and kill them, you take everything they were, everything they are, and everything they ever could be away, except maybe their soul depending on their standing with God.

The same applies to you. Bullets go both ways.

The best gun battle scenario, is the one you avoided. It's not a war, it's not a movie, it's survival. If you can avoid it, it should be avoided.

That said, there may come a time when stars cross, cats walk under a ladder, you step on cracks, and numerous other superstitions including crossing Murphy, where use of a firearm makes the difference in surviving or not. For those times when it cannot be avoided, you don't want to find yourself with something of the dime store rack that may or may not work, nor something that is heavy on tacticool and light on ability.

Remember the adage "you get what you pay for" applies to firearms.

People will argue for months and years which caliber, firearm etc is the best. I'll state that post SHTF availability should make your choice for you.

.22 long rifle is 'the' most common rifle/pistol round in the world. No other round equals it in pure numbers that are produced every year.

That is followed by 12 gauge shotgun.

After those it gets complicated.

5.56, 3030, 270, 308, 3006, 300 mag, all are good rounds.
Each have applications in various scenarios. There are many others that work the same.

Then there are the platforms. AR, AK, HK, etc Semi autos, Lever actions, bolt actions, single shots, all have applicable uses in rifles.

Shotguns are the same, with a wide variety of gauges available with different actions.

The same applies to pistols.

The one key thing to keep in mind is practice, practice, practice. Whatever it is you choose, get well familiar with it, and good with it.

A well used single shot with a well placed round from a cool head who's thinking under stress will be more dangerous than the latest tacticool weapon spraying lead indiscriminately.

By the same token, going up against someone who is in all ways equal to you except that they have a stronger weapon, well your likely to loose that one.

Remember to consider well what it is your buying, and why.

[ColcordMama]

Whatever you choose, for whatever reasons, will be useless to you if you don't have the training, experience, determination and ammo to use it. You might as well have a marble ashtray in your hand instead. A weapon is not a threat. A gun is a handheld machine for killing, not a sign that says "Watch out or I might possibly consider using lethal force on you." Never arm yourself if

1.) you don't believe in your heart of hearts that if you absolutely have to, you'll shoot; and

2.) you don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that if your attacker tries to wrest your weapon away from you and turn it on you, you can fight him off.

My Daddy always drummed into me to never pick up a gun if I don't intend to shoot it, never shoot it toward a person unless I had no other choice, and always shoot to kill, not maim. A police officer told me that if I have to shoot an intruder, make damn sure he bleeds on my living room rug.

If you're going to have a weapon, have enough ammo for it at all times. There are no excuses for owning a weapon you can't fire because you didn't stockpile ammo before TSHTF. Also, make sure while you're stockpiling ammo that you also stockpile Hoppe's or whatever you use for cleaning and maintaining your weapons.

Just my .02 on the subject.

[Ceorlmann]

The 25 Gunfight Rules go a long way, and are pretty much what's already been said in how to use your gun. #1, #7, and #23 are the ones I try to live by, although all 25 are equally important in their own respective ways.

#1: Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
#7: In 10 years, no one will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
#23: Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and deescalation.

An expansion of number seven: something I like to say is "keep your powder dry, and don't do anything stupid." At war's end, the victors (usually the survivors) are the ones who write the history books. The losers don't. It takes a very clever historian and an equally clever archeologist to figure out what actually happened to them (the losers) and know the actual, unbiased story, and that answer may not be found for hundreds or even thousands of years, and that's if it's even found at all.


From a perspective of tactics when utilizing your survival gun:

Don't ever feel like you have to prove anything. Don't underestimate your foes or your friends. Don't become overconfident if you win many gunfights. All three and others have contributed to the passing of a lot of combatants in every war in human history. Sun Tzu pretty much said it all in a few simple words (not exact quotes, but the same points): Know your enemy, and know yourself, and you can win any fight. Good generals can win battles. Great generals can win wars without fighting an actual battle.


Regarding the buying of ammo: if you haven't begun stockpiling, then you're really pressing time to buy ammo. Good deals still exist, but ammo for the most part has gone up in price for many calibers already. For instance: a box of 1,000 rounds of M855 5.56mm ammo jumped up $100 from not even a year ago. That's another thing: when possible, buy in bulk. It'll save money in the long run (depending on how much longer the "long run" will last anyway).

[missasip]

Good points all.

Having a gun battle in a " No hospital around the corner event" is at best a pure crap shoot. You get in a gun fight, and heck maybe you kill the bad guy, great. Course he made two shots on your person, one in the knee and one in the foot on the opposite leg.

Not sure how to tell you, but you are at best a load for someone else to take care of for a LONG TIME.

Heck getting dead in a gun fight is the easy way. Sounds kinda hard, but you surely are not worried about tomorrow. But receive bad wounds and you WILL SUFFER.

As everyone else has said, stay out of the fight if at all possible. You will live to fight/survive another day.

Jimmy

[mud]

my plan is to avoid avoid avoid and if I have to fight I will pray before each round

[chinookpilot77]

My idea of a survival rifle is drastically different than most people's idea. I rarely consider a "me vs. them" scenario and largely consider my enemy nature itself. So the below information is from a wilderness survival perspective, not a human vs human event.

I have to consider what I'm doing in nature to begin with, in which case, its probably hunting. So, in that case, my hunting rifle or shotgun becomes my survival rifle...not some single shot POS or some inaccurate take down shotgun/rifle combo. (and I've owned and shot nearly every one of them out there and was disapointed)

So, I have made a few concessions to my given scenarios, namely, I carry an ultralight .22 pistol in addition to my hunting rifle. You wouldn't catch me dead in the woods with a "survival rifle" if I were going hunting. I am a professional hog guide, and I use what most other professional hunters use...a bolt action .30 caliber.

In summary and in my own opinion, one is better served by a high quality hunting rifle and a back up .22 pistol than any Savage 24, Baikal, M-6, plastic survival rifle, or cricket when considering wilderness survival.

[ikean]

if i have only one weapon on me @ any given time that will be my defacto survival weapon. It will most likely be my glock 23,or my .22 beretta as they accompany me everywhere.

[woodscustom]

I could not think of a situation, be it Home Defense, Hunting, Psychological inpact, or packing weapon, where the Remington 870 12ga isn't top dog.

Yes, there are more "SUITABLE" firearms for different situations, (Like Walking down main street on a sunny Sunday afternoon), but for all around, "I NEED A GUN" situations, the shotgun can't be beat.

A person "NEEDS" a 5 gun Battery MINIMUM.

Remington 870
Ruger 10-22
Handgun
Long Range Rifle
Tactical Carbine

If I had to 'Grab ONE" and go, No Hesitation, It would be a Remington 870.

WC

[WILL]

I agree with the gist of this thread; Bravado can get you killed and survival is no arm-chair commando issue. None of us want to be in a gun fight or struggling for our survival in a hunting situation.

That said, I believe a sub-compact CCW and accompanying permit is the most likely gun to save your bacon. Most here don't spend enough time in the wilderness, compared to in civilization, for a hunting rifle to fill the #1 role. Statistically speaking, most are much more likely to become the victim of a crime as opposed to surviving being lost in the wilderness and having to hunt for their food.

Walking through town with your slung Remington 870 ensures a quick trip to jail for most here. I don't answer my door with my 870. I don't greet unfamiliar vehicles in my driveway carrying my 870. Heck, I don't even walk around my own property or home with the 870. If you're like me, it's tucked away in the gun safe or stashed elsewhere. However, I always have my pistol on my person. It's always there; ready to protect me in a pinch.

So while a pocket pistol may not be the coolest survival gun in the safe, it's probably the most likely to see use pulling your ass out of trouble. Remember, the #1 rule in a gun fight...have a gun. For that reason alone, I recommend it as a first survival gun purchase.

My #2 gun buy would be a quality pump shotgun. .22 pistols and rifles are also extremely handy, and I have several. but IMHO the shotgun is more likely to put meat on the table when the chips are down. I've missed a few squirrels and rabbits in my day with .22s. It's alot harder to miss them with the shotgun. The shotgun also does double duty on larger game/ defense, where the .22 isn't quite so capable. It's hard to beat a shotgun for home defense situations where you have time to choose a gun. Realistically, not Mad Max, the shotgun is the better choice over the .22 for survival, and just a fantastic all around get r' done gun.

#3 a military type semi-auto rifle that can do double duty as a hunting tool. If you have any advanced warning that combat is eminent, this would be the go to gun for most. If you were going hunting for large game, it'll get the job done.

This is all just my opinion, so don’t come after me people!
#1) CCW sub-compact pistol
#2) Quality pump shotgun
#3) Military type semi-auto rifle that can do double duty as a hunting tool.

As to the ammunition availability issue, like originally stated in the opener, I like to keep it real. If TSHTF, I'm not going to be using any ammo target practicing. In gun fights, bullets go both ways. Under those circumstances, I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone would out-survive two boxes of hand gun ammunition in their lifetime. Any man who can engage in close quarters pistol combat, no matter the amount of engagements, where 100 rounds are exchanged, and survives...is very luck indeed. So far in my lifetime, I've fired exactly 4 rounds in self defense. I was shot once in one of those exchanges. That's typical odds...good luck with your stash of 2,000 9MM rounds

Same for shotgun and rifle concerning self defense. 500 rounds of 00 buck/slugs/FMJ and call it good. More than that is fine for hunting purposes, but think realistically about how many animals are out there for you to kill. Especially if everyone else and their uncle is trying to shoot them too.

[garret]

the .22 was always the gun of choice back in the uk, it is lightweight, compact if you fit it with an aftermarket folding stock, and because of the laws in the uk it could be fitted with a silencer which made it almost dead silent, using eley subsonic ammunition the loudest noise was the firing pin slamming into the rim of the cartrige, plus the ammunition is plentyful and cheap, and ther is no restriction on the ammount you can purchase and hold as long as you have secure storage for it

i like shotguns but anything other than a break barrel single or twin bore was not alowed unless you had a fac (fire arms certificate) for a shotgun rather than the eisier to obtain shotgun licence, also slugs and the heavier shot (oo buck and suchlike) also required an fac licence, plus they are damn noisy.

also handguns are completely illegal, with severe penaltys for the ownership of them even if you didnt commit any other crime with them

[thywar]

Garrett, you just made me realize how lucky I am to be an American. Will, I agree with everything you wrote. Even so, I have WCs arsenal of weapons plus. Ammo, yep, I have more than I need based on what you write Will... and I agree with that too. All is good because our forefathers wrote an incredible constitution. I'm blessed... and thanks for the reminder.. although on this weekend I have lots of reasons for blessings. Yes indeed, I'm a very proud American.

[woodyz]

Since my carry pistol is always on or beside me, the first thing I will pick up is a .12 ga pump.

In the trunk of my car is a 12 ga pump. In the tool box of my truck is a 12 ga. pump. In the closet of my RV is a 12 ga pump. The sling on each holds 20 rounds mixed in 00B, slugs and #71/2.

If I can get to a cache I will have any other weapons and ammo as I will need for an extended period.

[woodyz]

Anyone seen the video on "cut shells"? It is where you take a shot shell in bird shot or trap loads and create slugs.

You cut the shell case almost all the way around about 1/2 way up. When the shell fires the cut case breaks and the small shot stays in the case end and the wad and hits with the force of a slug.

I had seen it but not tried it until today. I made up some 12 and 20 and they all went through 1/2 plywood.

Also they show cutting the top off of a shell dumping the shot, then melting some wax or they used crayola colors so they could see the slug in flight. Mix the hot wax with the shot and return to the case until full. Clean up the end and it shoots like a slug.

Either way is a lot cheaper than a slug but almost as effective.

In combat I had 3" 12 ga shells loaded with 00buck under a 3/8" ball bearing. The ball bearing was good out to 70 yards, but it is very hard on barrels.

Just some options in a bad situation.

[USCGME2]

For me, I look at my weapons as tools. And, like any red blooded American guy, I like my tools . Where ever possible, I like to use a 9/16" socket to turn a 9/16" nut. If all I have is a pair of channel locks and can still get the nut off, job well done. Not as comfy as the wrench but, done is done. The point being, all firearms pretty much do the same thing in many different ways. The object is to hurl a pice(s) of lead at an object (or whatever) with enough force to subdue it. The closer you can come to using the right gun for the circumstances, the better. I just dont expect much from a 10/22 if I have to try and stop a truck from comming up the road. Then again, the 50 cal. might be a bit overkill trying to drop that rabbit across the yard.

If I had the proverbial "only one", pray it be a shotgun - prefferably a 12g. That said, Ill take what I have on hand at the moment because like was said b4, the best gun is the one you have in your hand (loaded of course) .

All this is just a nickle's worth of free opinion.

[woodyz]

Exactly!
12 gauge for all around general purpose.
.22 is a camp gun
7.62x39 for everything else - if I cold still hit something beyond 300 yards it would be a 308