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Post by USCGME2 on Aug 19, 2012 15:44:46 GMT -7
Maybe some of you metal experts here can answer this one for me.....I stowed a small firesteel (originally from that "other" place we only speak of in soft whispers  ) in the stone pocket on the sheath of my survival knife that I keep in a large ammo box in my truck. The firesteel had deep lines eroded/pitted in it and the pocket was full of a grayish colored powder (obviously from the steel). What caused this and why? How should I store a firesteel then? Didnt know where else to post this one and I figured the metal experts patrolled here..... |
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Post by alex on Aug 19, 2012 16:56:50 GMT -7
It could be oxidation from one of the metals used in making the steel....kinda like battery acid on a terminal
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Post by Cwi555 on Aug 19, 2012 18:20:46 GMT -7
Maybe some of you metal experts here can answer this one for me.....I stowed a small firesteel (originally from that "other" place we only speak of in soft whispers ) in the stone pocket on the sheath of my survival knife that I keep in a large ammo box in my truck. The firesteel had deep lines eroded/pitted in it and the pocket was full of a grayish colored powder (obviously from the steel). What caused this and why? How should I store a firesteel then? Didnt know where else to post this one and I figured the metal experts patrolled here..... Part of the reason is covered here; survivalbunker.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1866&page=1Being that it is leather in contact, you also have some other problems. Starting with the salt used in curing, ending with the acids commercial leather is cured with. As a general rule of thumb, most leathers are neutral to steels, but a mischmetal rod (fire steel) is not steel. That grey powder is a byproduct of the corrosion processes at play. I suspect that leather got moist. Some firesteels are balanced out enough at 1.04 to reside in leather, but getting much above that, it will likely corrode via chemical attack intergranular stress corrosion / preferential corrosion. Without pictures, I can't be sure, but I would be willing to bet you have some exfoliation going on as well. It could all fall under the general heading of de-alloying. There were some others who had a similar problem. For all forms of mischmetal, it's generally a good idea to put them in nylon or other fabric sheaths, especially if you don't know the leather process used. If you insist on leather, go to wherever it is you buy leather in your location and specifically request acid free leather. |
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Post by scoper27 on Aug 19, 2012 18:32:42 GMT -7
I bought an H&R 12ga and in the buttstock were a few "survival" items. One being the boy scouts version of the firesteel. And it was very corroded, once I pulled all the stuff out you could literally pour the the corroded "dust" from the firesteel out.
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Post by USCGME2 on Aug 19, 2012 18:46:05 GMT -7
Thanks CWI. If it makes any dif, the sheath was to my AF survival knive from Ontario Knife CO that I have used some dark brown shoe polish on it to darken it a bit. Dont think it actually ever got wet but, it is humid as Hades here in SETEX.
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Post by angelhelp on Aug 19, 2012 20:08:14 GMT -7
I'm glad my ferro rods are all stored in dry places; I had no idea they were so vulnerable. Thanks for that info!
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Post by Cwi555 on Aug 20, 2012 4:10:56 GMT -7
I'm glad my ferro rods are all stored in dry places; I had no idea they were so vulnerable. Thanks for that info! The moister by itself is not a problem. If the alloy is correct, you could leave it in a jar of water. However, if you introduce acids, salts etc, that changes the game. For the kind of leather in question, it is not out of the norm to find brass casings that have been left in leather loops corroded over time. It has more to do with their position on the noble/anodic scale than the metallurgy. For the mischmetals, they are especially prone to this as their metallurgy ends up net positive on the anodic index. There is a simple fix for this though. a liner of aluminum will prevent most issues. The aluminum will prevent most problems. Either keep it in aluminum foil, or for the case of a leather sheath, a thin wall aluminum tube inserted into the slot for the mischrods. |
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Post by sirderrin on Aug 20, 2012 15:09:49 GMT -7
Vegetable tanned leather has never caused me any issues....depending of course on what you use to treat it with....... It would be the safest choice for most utility uses.....like sheaths, holsters, carry all pouches....I use Pecard's leather care products on my personal items and anything I make for others as well....If anyone knows something different please let me know....  I'm glad my ferro rods are all stored in dry places; I had no idea they were so vulnerable. Thanks for that info! The moister by itself is not a problem. If the alloy is correct, you could leave it in a jar of water. However, if you introduce acids, salts etc, that changes the game. For the kind of leather in question, it is not out of the norm to find brass casings that have been left in leather loops corroded over time. It has more to do with their position on the noble/anodic scale than the metallurgy. For the mischmetals, they are especially prone to this as their metallurgy ends up net positive on the anodic index. There is a simple fix for this though. a liner of aluminum will prevent most issues. The aluminum will prevent most problems. Either keep it in aluminum foil, or for the case of a leather sheath, a thin wall aluminum tube inserted into the slot for the mischrods.
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Post by Cwi555 on Aug 20, 2012 17:37:42 GMT -7
Vegetable tanned leather has never caused me any issues....depending of course on what you use to treat it with....... It would be the safest choice for most utility uses.....like sheaths, holsters, carry all pouches....I use Pecard's leather care products on my personal items and anything I make for others as well....If anyone knows something different please let me know.... The moister by itself is not a problem. If the alloy is correct, you could leave it in a jar of water. However, if you introduce acids, salts etc, that changes the game. For the kind of leather in question, it is not out of the norm to find brass casings that have been left in leather loops corroded over time. It has more to do with their position on the noble/anodic scale than the metallurgy. For the mischmetals, they are especially prone to this as their metallurgy ends up net positive on the anodic index. There is a simple fix for this though. a liner of aluminum will prevent most issues. The aluminum will prevent most problems. Either keep it in aluminum foil, or for the case of a leather sheath, a thin wall aluminum tube inserted into the slot for the mischrods. Pecards utilizing petroleum distillates for their products. Regarding the vegetable tanned leather, that is generally what is considered acid free. It tends to be more expensive as it takes longer to process by that method, with increased waste as compared to the standard commercial chrome processing. That btw is the primary cause of concern. That process utilizes chromium(III) sulfate (chromium salts). In the process they have to have a secondary process utilizing acetic acid to prevent/mitigate polychromium(III) chains. While that stabilizes the leather post liming, they have to add sodium bicarbonate or something similar to get the PH up out of the dirt. While this makes for a more thermally stable leather, (doesn't shrink as much in hot water), It doesn't get back to a PH of 7 (neutral). As you know, anything less than a 7 is considered acidic. The Chromium method ends with a net PH of 3.2 to 5.5 depending on the quality of the operation (acidic). I've tested some chinese leather that went down to a 2.8. The only more acidic form of tanning is mineral tanning. Regarding vegetable tanning, it's PH levels never get that low. However, if they screw up the process, it can get significantly higher than a 7 and into the alkaline range to the tune of a 9 or 10. That is usually a sign that the process was tainted and or screwed up. It's also a sign of a leather that won't last long at all as it's not actually cured by definition and will fail. (there are some leathers that have extra processing that carries it up to a PH of 10 such as chamois leather so be sure of the kind of leather you have before hitting the roof). If you want to recreate the leather testing process as done by independent labs such as I used to own, you need to download and supply to order of this document: www.astm.org/Standards/D2810.htmIt will also contain further references you will need. If you really want to get into the bug dust for the subject this is where you need to start. www.veredlungschemikalien.basf.de/ev-wcms-in/internet/de_DE/function/conversions:/publish/upload/EV/EV9/documents/pocket_book/de_leather_testing_methods03_02_03.pdfBASF put together a very comprehensive list for you. You will derive the same American equivalent to the EU standards by following the D2810 references. |
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Post by sirderrin on Aug 20, 2012 18:12:33 GMT -7
Interesting....So most of the of the time Pecards should be ok for general use on veggie tanned leather that involves contact with most standard metal products.
At least I have found that to be the case with knifes of all ilks and guns as well...though I do make sure there is no visible residue on the leather before actively using it again.
The neutral pH is a good thing and you can almost always spot a badly tanned hide
The second link seems to be broken might try a hyper link?
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Post by angelhelp on Aug 20, 2012 20:48:52 GMT -7
My ferro rods were bought after discovering the old forum. I don't own anything of leather except shoes. The rods have lived in various locations including a purse (an item I gave up carrying after thefts occurred at school), my pockets, an Alice pack, and in the open on my key lanyard. Now that I know to protect them with aluminum, I'll use a bit of foil and possibly keep it in place by placing the rods in an old plastic glasses case. |
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Post by mud on Aug 20, 2012 23:26:20 GMT -7
I leave mine unwrapped in any way...usually just hanging on a beaner or lanyard of some sort, maybe some ranger bands holding them to something and never had one exhibit any sort of corrosion. BTW, those three packs on CTD are pretty darn good with a good striker.
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Post by swamprat1 on Aug 20, 2012 23:51:30 GMT -7
I've also had that trouble as well. We had discussed on the unnamed forum I believe about this same time last year. In my case, I was testing a new sheath by Beowulf( excellent work for those that don't know). I was doing some boat training in brackish water. The first couple days I was sure to rinse everything and had no trouble. The third day or so I was in a hurry one evenin and neglected to wash the brackish water off. The next day I noticed the fire steel was loose in the holder. Upon inspection I found the same corrosion you have found.
I did test it and found it would still produce a spark, though not nearly of the I testify as before.
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Post by Cwi555 on Aug 21, 2012 2:10:32 GMT -7
Interesting....So most of the of the time Pecards should be ok for general use on veggie tanned leather that involves contact with most standard metal products. At least I have found that to be the case with knifes of all ilks and guns as well...though I do make sure there is no visible residue on the leather before actively using it again. The neutral pH is a good thing and you can almost always spot a badly tanned hide The second link seems to be broken might try a hyper link? The second link works on this end. It's a PDF so that may be causing you problems. |
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) in the stone pocket on the sheath of my survival knife that I keep in a large ammo box in my truck. The firesteel had deep lines eroded/pitted in it and the pocket was full of a grayish colored powder (obviously from the steel). What caused this and why? How should I store a firesteel then?
