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Post by missj on Sept 30, 2012 11:54:26 GMT -7
At the bottom of this post, I've copied and pasted the most pertinent info from my bid. For those that may not want to read it all...here are the quick and dirty 'highlights"
It will produce 19% of our electricity based on current usage.
After all taxes, rebates and incentives are received it will cost me about $3,500. But I have to put up $13,600 up front then wait for the rebates to come in my tax returns.
This is NOT a battery bank system (which is what I originally wanted). The battery bank system of a similar size would have cost about $40k he estimated.... NOT in my budget....
It is a grid tied system. So the grid must be functioning for my photovoltaic system to function. In the event that we produce excess energy (say we are on vacation in August or something...) then my electric meter will run backwards....
Details from my bid below:
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Electric Utility Savings: The purchase of electricity (kWh) from your utility is expected to be reduced 19%. Expect a savings of
$374 in electric bills (18%) at current utility rates. Annual utility electric costs will be reduced from $2,056 to $1,682. Savings
will grow as electric utility rates are expected to rise 3.78% a year.
Over 39 years, annual utility savings are expected to average $810, for a total utility savings of $31,608. In gross income
(pre-tax) dollars, savings average $1,210 annually or $47,175 over the system life.
System Performance Summary
Solar Electric (PV) System: 3.36 kW DC (3.209 kW AC) producing 3,511 kWh/Year
Purchase Price & Net Cost
Gross Price: $16,128
Incentives to Contractor: ($2,520)
Contract Price: $13,608
Incentives to Customer: ($5,582)
Net Purchase Cost: $8,026
Incentives in Later Years: $4,500
Cash Gained over Life: $43,649
Customer Type: Residential
Financial Ratios
Customer`s Profitability Index: 2.6
Cashflow Payback: 5.6 years
Internal Rate of Return (IRR): 15.8%
Net Present Value (NPV): $12,642
• Property Value Appreciation: $11,580 ( 1st-year utility savings x 20 years)
Array Configuration: Tilt: 19° Azimuth: 180° 3" Standoff
Shade reduces production: 0%
PV Panels: 14 x SolarWorld, Model: SW240 Poly
Inverters: 1 x PV Powered, Model: PVP3500
Total Panel Area: 243 sq-ft
System Peak Power: 3.36 kW DC (3.209 kW AC, 2.867 kW CEC)
Annual Production: 3,511 kWh. Supplying 19% of annual electric use
Contract Price Summary: Solar Electric (PV) System
Gross Price: $16,128 ($4.8 per watt DC)
Incentives to be received by Contractor in 1st Year
Energy Trust - Solar Electric Buy-Down (Residential) $ 0.75 per watt DC $ 5K
cap:
($2,520)
Contract Amount: $13,608
Incentives to be received by Customer in 1st Year
OR State Personal Tax Credit ($ 2.10/watt DC): ($1,500)
Federal Tax Credit (30% of Net Cost at Installation): ($4,082)
Net Cost at Install (after incentives): $8,026
Net Installed Price per Watt: $2.39 per watt DC ($2.5 per watt AC)
Total Incentives to be received by Customer in Later Years: $4,500
* - OR State Personal Tax Credit ($ 2.10/watt DC)
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Post by missj on Sept 30, 2012 12:01:05 GMT -7
Perhaps I should also mention that I am looking at this as an investment. I know it is not ideal for a lot of survival scenarios being grid based and all...
Being that I actually have enough money to do this right now, and I cannot think of a better or safer place to put my money, that is why I am considering this mostly as a home upgrade and investment and less as a SHTF investment....although in some kinds of SHTF scenarios this could still be helpful...for instance in an economic depression type scenario where the grid is still up, but energy costs are astronomically high...
As a side note, the panels made by Solar World are made right here in Oregon about 40 miles from my home....providing much needed American manufacturing jobs...(It is actually a german engineering company, but the panels are made here....)
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Post by alex on Sept 30, 2012 13:35:58 GMT -7
I like the idea. There is a large cost up front but, it'll pay for itself. I know a battery bank system costs $1000's more and if I could ever afford to go solar that will be the way I try to go but I don't see it happening all at once due to over all cost.
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Post by missj on Sept 30, 2012 18:41:18 GMT -7
thank you so much for your thoughtful response! (edit: this was a response to Marc who made a great post in answer to my question, then he must have deleted it? Or there was some kind of glitch...I don't know...but either way, I thought your post was great, Marc and there was nothing inflammatory, or offensive about it...don't know why it has disappeared?)
I am aware that if the grid goes down, then I will be down just like everyone else....which sucks. But it leaves me no worse off than I am now.
Since we are rural and on well and septic with a generator and fuel stores on hand, I am not worried about getting through short term scenarios. For long term scenarios we have manual well options as well as a creek about a 30 second walk from our property line and berkey filter system for that back-up.... back-up option. We would have no power, which sucks but nobody else would have power either and we do have a wood stove with stacked cord wood on hand.
I wonder if having power in a long term grid down situation would make you a target? I also wonder if solar panels (even non functioning grid tied solar panels) would make you a target?
Where they would be situated on our property nobody could see from the road...but neighbors would probably know they are there from install process and of course they could be viewed from Google Earth....
I fully realize that this array would not help me in a grid down situation. Still, it seems to me that for under $4k net cost it might be worth it...
when you say it is not a simple upgrade later...does that mean that if in 6 months I got a monster windfall like lottery or inheritance and wanted to go with a solar battery bank system, that I would have to start all over from scratch?
That is bummer news....but also since I am not expecting any big cash windfalls...and if I did get one then I suppose it would be more good than bad so I could manage to not be upset about this purchase....
For me, the fact of the matter comes down to this: I am not in a position to afford a battery banked system. I am in a position to afford this. Would it be better to wait until I COULD afford a battery banked system? I don't know when that might be, or if ever....
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Post by thywar on Sept 30, 2012 19:34:01 GMT -7
Yeah that is strange about Marc's post disappearing.. it was a good post I thought..
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Post by tjwilhelm on Sept 30, 2012 22:09:02 GMT -7
Shucks! I missed Marc's post; BUT, I can imagine some of the things he might have mentioned. Regarding a later upgrade from utility-interactive to battery-based: [ ] - the PV array will need to be re-wired for a lower operating voltage, determined by the max. input voltage of whatever charge controllers you select; [ ] - the system will require the addition of batteries, charge controllers, additional PV-string combiners, totally new and different kind of inverter, and additional switch gear, etc. As an "investment," multiply your current electricity cost per KWhr x the KWhr annual production of your system. This will tell you the value of the system's production. Now divide the total cost of the system, by the annual production value. In rough terms, this will tell you the "simple payback" period -- how many years to recover your initial investment, assuming the cost of electricity doesn't go up and the value of the dollar stays constant. My guess is, even with all your rebates and incentives, your simple payback will be 10 years or more. Think about this...if the economy tanks and TSHTF before 10 years passes, and if the grid goes down, your system will become a boat anchor and you will will not have recovered your initial investment. Given what seems to be your world view and expectations, I'd give serious consideration to re-thinking your strategy. If you have money to spend, I'd do this: [ ] - Start by reducing your electrical load. Get all high-efficiency appliances, lights, etc. Take electrical-saving measures like adding timers and motion detectors to controll your lighting circuits. Switch from space lighting to task lighting. Eliminate all your phantom loads by switching off the TV, computers, etc. with a power strip. [ ] - Create a pared-down list of your must-have, critical loads (electrical). Ask yourself "which electrical loads do we really need to have on when the grid goes down?" Your probably looking at the refrigerator/freezer, some communications gear, water pump, sump pump, furnace fan and controls, and critical lights. [ ] - Design and install a battery-based solar-PV system that will keep those critical loads alive. [ ] - Select a contractor to design and install your system who is a NABCEP-Certified Solar-PV Installer. Go to this website: www.nabcep.org/installer-locator-agreement. Select "Agree." Then select your State (OR?). Note, there are only about 30 of these Certified folks in the entire State of Oregon; BUT, they will know what the heck they're doing! That's my 2 cents, for now... |
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Post by missj on Sept 30, 2012 22:25:21 GMT -7
thank you so much TJ!
You have really given me a lot to think about.....none of which I can discount....
My situation is a little bit strange in that I have about $10,000 to work with right now....and no forseeable cash infusion in the future....I am nervous because I feel like my capital is losing value every day while energy costs soar....but I am unable to find a different way to meaningfully invest this capital....
Besides new windows and attic and duct insulation we have already taken the steps you mentioned. We have a high efficiency washer, dryer, dishwasher, refridgerator, lightbulbs etc. We already use very little electricity in our normal daily lives except my husband's business which works off our same grid (a lot of welding and air compressor tools)
But I accept and will carefully consider your advice. Seems I need to crunch my OWN numbers and that is why I value this forum so much! You guys really have no idea how much expertise you bring to a person like myself!!!!
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Post by Dennis on Oct 1, 2012 4:11:46 GMT -7
I think these grid tied systems are great for those of us who can not afford the battery systems. They have been around for a long time and work great. Good for you.
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Post by tjwilhelm on Oct 1, 2012 19:17:45 GMT -7
Dennis is quite correct. Utility-interactive (grid-tied) PV system have been around a while and work very well. I'm not contradicting that.
Rather, I'm trying to focus on the PURPOSE of the system.
If the purpose is to have an affordable, easy-to-maintain,reliable, renewable energy system that reduces your carbon foot print and makes you more "green," while reducing your electric bill, then a good utility-interactive system is absolutely the way to go.
On the other hand, if you are anticipating extended utility-power outages, and you want to have independent, solar-powered electricity if and when everyone else's lights go out, then you absolutely NEED energy storage and an inverter that is not designed to shut down when the utility dies.
The disadvantages of a battery-based are:
[ ] - More expensive then utility-interactive;
[ ] - Set-up, operation, monitoring, and maintenance are more involved;
[ ] - Batteries are a weak link in the system if you don't care for them properly.
Using a battery-based system you need to educate yourself on battery safety and battery maintenance. Your PV modules will last for decades on end. If you care for them well, and buy right in the beginning, you can get 20 years out of your batteries. That said, I've seen battery banks cr@p out in less tan a year because of operator/owner ignorance and stupidity.
I just encourage you to seriously examine your purpose for the system and stay true to your purpose.
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Post by missj on Oct 1, 2012 20:32:05 GMT -7
I just encourage you to seriously examine your purpose for the system and stay true to your purpose. OK- well if I'm being totally honest and not deluding myself then the original purpose of my system was for off-grid back-up power as well as an investment vehicle and energy cost savings. Those were the things that originally drew me to investigate solar, in that particular order. Then I found out how far beyond my reach it was....and now I've sort of "glamorized" an alternative plan(....if I'm being brutally honest....) ....sigh.....ho-hum....I REALLY want to use this capital to do something meaningful. And I REALLY want to reduce my tax burden (via incentives)...anybody have any suggestions? What would the smallest functional battery banked solar array cost me? Basically, $10k is what I have to work with. Sure, I could get some loans but at the end of the day, that defeats my purpose unless I GAIN a lot of ROI on the deal to offset the interest. Could I even get something worthwhile up and running for $10K? maybe I should look at another avenue altogether to invest in? |
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Post by missj on Oct 16, 2012 23:12:12 GMT -7
maybe I should just take my money and buy other preps, but spend a few hundred bucks on something like this.... www.amazon.com/Sunforce-50048-60-Watt-Solar-Charging/dp/B000CIADLG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350454043&sr=8-1&keywords=solar+panelI won't need solar for day to day activities. basically just battery recharging for various small electronics devices like walkie talkies, flashlights and other goodies like that. we don't even need electricity for entertainment as we've got a million books, boardgames and even several old wind up record players with glass records and even "stories" on records for kids to listen to....not that it wouldn't be nice to fire up the laptop and watch the occasional movie...but I wouldn't put that high on the survival checklist. |
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Post by blacksmith on Oct 17, 2012 0:02:41 GMT -7
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Post by Dennis on Oct 17, 2012 5:29:17 GMT -7
missg got to admit your thread got me thinking again about a RE system. I've done a lot of research on the solar set ups and find that there not that complicated for a DIY kind of person. I do have some electrical experience and was licensed at one time.
Anywho I've been wanting to put in a 5 KW grid tie system. I set down yesterday with all my ele bills and did some math. Even doing it my self the system would come in well under 10 grand but it would take forever to pay for itself. My ele bills for the year average 100 month and they would be less if I could convince my wife to turn off a light LOL.
I do want to be green but just don't see it right now. Maybe in a few years the cost will come down.
I am going to start experimenting with the solar and wind systems thought.
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Post by tjwilhelm on Oct 17, 2012 8:09:44 GMT -7
Just a solar FYI...
Right now, solar-PV modules are the lowest price they have ever been...down to about $1.00 per rated Watt of power.
I have many good friends in the solar-PV industry, from installers, to distributors, and folks working for manufacturers. There is a nervousness among these folks that the generally bad condition of the economy is really hitting the solar-PV industry hard.
Just this morning, in the latest edition of "Renewable Energy News," The lead article was titled: "GTM Research Predicts 180 PV Manufacturers Will Fold or Be Acquired by 2015."
In support of this article, Japan's SHARP -- a big solar-PV manufacturer -- just announced a few weeks ago that they are ceasing their manufacturing of solar-PV modules.
In anticipation that the industry will tighten and prices may rise, I just picked up a few more PV modules for just a hair over $1.00/watt. These are made in Wisconsin by Helios USA -- American Made! My inner itch told me to stock up on a few modules for possible future projects.
I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy solar, today. That's a personal decision. However, I will let you know that the reason prices are low right now is because there is a huge glut of PV modules sitting in warehouses! The firesales have started. Once the excess inventory is gone, the prices will go up.
For whatever it may be worth...
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Post by marc on Oct 17, 2012 9:59:24 GMT -7
Fire sale is right, TJ. There will likely never be a better time to buy PV modules in terms of cost/watt. The market simply cannot sustain itself without a profit.
One of my customers was in my shop this morning with a pallet of (25) 240 watt panels that she bought for $0.96/watt. Even one of those panels would provide close to 900 "real" watts of power per day. (I use 80% of the rated power x 4.75 hours in my area)
This does NOT mean that everyone should buy them, but IF a person is ready to make the move, I wouldn't hesitate much longer hoping for a price drop.
I only sell large batteries, most of them for PV system storage. The demand has gone absolutely through the roof, especially for 2volt, 900-1200 amp hour batteries for larger battery banks. In July, we exceeded the number of batteries that we sold all of last year. Just this month so far, we've sold over 1,000 large batteries for PV/wind systems. My shop is small - others sell a lot more! The increase in battery demand is happening all over the world, not just in the US.
From a cost/benefit perspective, we are doing many systems that specifically designed to use the bulk of their daily energy during peak solar input hours - thereby reducing battery bank size. I recently finished helping to design a system that uses "excess" PV energy to make chilled water which gets stored underground to provide air conditioning later.
Marc
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