Advice?

[mountainmark]

Hey all. I know there are some folks on here who are shooters

So, I would like some advice on what I may be doing wrong. I have shot rifles and shotguns my whole life and never had a problem, but am new to the realm of handguns.

The problem I'm having is that I consistently group my shots low and to the left. I thought at first it might be the gun, but then I tried with other handguns and it is always the same. What am I doing wrong???

[cowgirlup]

I couldn't remember what specifically caused that ( aside from a grip problem) I looked it up online and also found this site with targets you can print that tell you what the problem is depending on where the shot lands.

blog.hsoi.com/2009/06/15/correcting-handgun-shooting-problems/

[kutkota]

are you left or right handed? There is a chart you can google it that is a circle and depending on where your impacting in that circle will let you know on a basic level what your issue might be. I'm on my phone or I would post it for you.

[woodyz]

Good call cowgirl, Its the way you are gripping the hand gun you are squeezing with your lower fingers causing the lows. You didn't say if you were right or left handed but since you are hitting left I would guess right handed. You only need to hold the handgun tight enough to keep it in your hand. You are tightening your whole hand when you squeeze the trigger.

Make a fist and squeeze it, you can see it pull down and left.

Concentrate on only moving your finger when you squeeze the trigger

[mountainmark]

Yep, right handed. I'll bet you that's what I'm doing. Will have to go back to the sand pit and try again to be sure, but I just squeezed the trigger on safety and it indeed pulled down and to the left. Thanks friends! I'll let you know how it turns out!

[thywar]

I noticed when I went through that simulator in Houston.. I would always hit the guy in the right side of his; head, shoulder, center mass, right leg.. I'm right handed facing the 'suspect'. Too much grip was my problem as well.. Hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of not 'gripping' a .45 or .40 handgun. or even a .357 mag as far as that goes.. but I was sure pulling it left.. not down so much but definitely left.

[cowgirlup]

I think the NRA instructor also mentioned anticipating the shot and gripping harder as you pull the trigger now that' I'm thinking on it.
I've also noticed it is worse for me with the single action type firearms.

kota, is it the same chart that is in my link or another one? If it's different please post it. I'm going to take them to the range because I tend to over compensate and that looks really helpful.

[USCGME2]

Are you putting your index finger of the left hand on the face of the trigger guard? Some pistols have a textured surface there and its natural to grip that finger to the front of the trigger guard like that. If you are, bring that finger down to join the rest. What I was taught was that your left index finger will have 20-30% transference reaction in sync with the right. (Note: this probably does not apply to Angel because I willing to assume she can make her piano hands and fingers work independently! . Also, pay attention to using only the pad of your trigger finger. This should bring your groups back over.

You may want to try this too - "aim small, miss small. Aim big miss big". Use a man size target like a B-24 and shoot a mag's worth of ammo at it. Take that target off and smile (afterall range is fun time! . ) Then instead of using a big target, resurface with only a 3x5 note card with a small 1" -2" or so dot in the middle. At the same distance, shoot another mag. Concentrate hitting only the dot. That dot is your entire target, no hit no points. After you are done, take that card and look how much tighter your overall group is! Aim small, miss small!

[angelhelp]

You're absolutely right, USCG, my fingers do indeed work VERY independently. I use them in ways that are all but unconscious to me, but that astonish folks who never thought about how a pianist (and a well-trained organist) might use hands.

That said, I'm reading EVERYONE's input here most intently because, as little practice as I've had (and all before prices skyrocketed), I suspect part of my problem has been addressed. In my eagerness to avoid being the numbnuts who got whacked in the frontal lobe with recoil, I made sure I put a "piano fingers grip" in place. The squeezing down and left was indeed a problem, and I too overcompensated. Ceorlmann said I seemed to anticipate the sound and sometimes flinched... and that was while wearing both the 32db foam earplugs as well as the headset-style ear protection.

Around the same time, I found my vision had changed slightly, necessitating both reading and distance glasses. Glasses under goggles are awkward to start, and it was very difficult for me to see where I'd hit the target because the dopey thing was still swinging; it's hard to focus properly on a moving object, and all my practice was before I had new glasses.

So the bottom line is 1) I need a WHOLE LOT of practice 2) I will be wearing the new distance glasses, which should make a lot of things easier 3) I will take into account everyone's input here 4) did I mention needing PRACTICE?

[mountainmark]

Just went out and ran a few mags through it. It was slightly better with loosening the hold but not the extreme difference I was hoping for. I guess practice practice practice....

USCGME2- I confess to being guilty of the finger on the guard as well. Will try removing that next time.

Thanks for working with me everyone!

[USCGME2]

The good thing about correcting grip and trigger pull is that draw and dry fire drills are cheap and you can do it at home.

[woodyz]

Its mostly practice. We would sometime shoot 10K rounds a month on the USMC Pistol Team. Now I try to shoot 100 rounds a month as a minimum. Also, first you have to be aware of your grip until you can consistently hit within what you are willing to accept, then you should ignore your grip (assume memory will hold it) and focus on your target.

Vision does make a lot of difference. If you are looking at your sights you are not going to "see" your target.

When I lost my right/dominate eye for a little more than a year, I was afraid to shoot for another five. Losing vision is a very scary thing.

After I got over my fear my problem is my right eye was fixed to 20/30 while my left eye is still 90/40. While I could have had both eyes fixed, I would not have been able to read without glasses, and I read something 70% of my awake time. Computer or books.

I have always kept both eyes open when shooting, but now I can not, my right eye sees the target, my left sees the sights, so I have to close my left eye which screwed up my point of aim.

Please understand, I can wear my glasses, which bring my left eye into close focus with my right and fix the problem. But I try and shoot most without my glasses, I don't want to depend on having them on in a shooting situation. Effectively I have two different points of aim, which sucks and which makes me a fair pistol shooter instead of the expert I used to be.

There are many different schools of thought on how to grip a handgun and you should try several and find one that is comfortable and effective for you. The best grip for you is the one that works best for you.

At the same time, the grip you use needs to be something that becomes natural and can be acquired quickly. Once you find your grip and practice using it over and over, also practice pulling the handgun and acquiring it quickly. You have got to be able to use the same grip in a shooting situation that you use in practice.

Practice is for training your reaction memory to shoot and hit where you need to by reaction, not by thinking it through. If you have to think your way through it, you will be too slow. Practice until you can do it without thinking to survive.

[woodyz]

Aug 8, 2013 17:36:53 GMT -7 mountainmark said:

Just went out and ran a few mags through it. It was slightly better with loosening the hold but not the extreme difference I was hoping for. I guess practice practice practice....

USCGME2- I confess to being guilty of the finger on the guard as well. Will try removing that next time.

Thanks for working with me everyone!

I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into things but here is some food for thought. If you can not find a grip that consistently allows you to hit where you are aiming, consider aiming to hit where you are shooting.

I will try to explain. Some people will never be able to aim with a correct/textbook sight picture. You know the bullseye just above the front sight centered in the back sight.

Because of individual grip and/or vision some people will never consistently hit the bullseye if they aim at it.

When I talk about my point of aim I am saying I am aiming where I need to aim to hit the bullseye, my sight picture has changed due to my vision, I do not aim exclusively at the bullseye. I have a different point of aim for a Colt .45 then I do for a Beretta 9mm and another different point of aim for a Beretta .380 and it is because of the grip.

Now if you shoot a thousand rounds and you are always hitting left and low adjust the sights if you can. Just know that anyone else using that handgun and trying to sight it by the book will not hit the bullseye with it. If its your handgun that doesn't matter, adjust the sights to your shooting. But if the handgun sights are correctly adjusted or can't be adjusted fine enough to accommodate your point of aim....aim where you are shooting. If you are consistently shooting an inch low and an inch left, aim an inch high and an inch right of where you want to hit.

Geeze I hope I am not screwing someone up with this. It will be much better if you can adjust your grip and sights so you use the text book sight alignment. But if you practice and practice and still can't get it, and the key word here is consistency in your practice.

The problem with this fix is it could mess you up on a different handgun that your hand and eye like better.

First is the grip and being consistent, second is to adjust the sights if you can, third get a better set of grips if the grip feels small or big or thin or fat, again assuming that it is your gun and you are the primary shooter. If you are sharing a gun and others shoot well with it, don't mess with the sights or grips. Practice your grip and when you get consistent in where you are hitting, adjust your point of aim.

[thywar]

Since my 'like' button still doesn't work WoodyZ, let me just say that's a great post and you make common sense points for everyone. That was a great concise lesson

[mountainmark]

Aug 8, 2013 20:21:43 GMT -7 USCGME2 said:

The good thing about correcting grip and trigger pull is that draw and dry fire drills are cheap and you can do it at home.

Now that's a good point