Looking at land and what we want

[kutkota]

Ok, so we are beginning the process of looking at land, well i should say narrowing down what we want in/on the land to begin to look at some land. I know some of you have to day dream about your perfect BOL or plot of land to retreat to when the going gets tough as well as just some place to have to relax and go play at.

My list so far of my wants as well as must haves.....


1. Large area,how large I don't know. I figure roughly and acre for the house and immediate surroundings.
2. I would plan on atleast an acre of garden
3. several acre stocked pond
4. Running stream
5. One "regular" entrance
6. I think I would want the housing location to at least be on a small rise?
7. Barn( I always was a farmer at heart), so figure another acre or so for that
8. seclusion would be high priority
9. I think I would want the majority to be timber with the immediate area surrounding the living area fairly open.

Questions
1. What would be the best( most durable) building material?
2. I am thinking in the 100 ish acre area. This would be a location with several in the extended family contributing to it so the bigger the better I think.

Havn't put a ton of thought into it, just thought I would throw it out there and see what everyone has to say.

[jmarshnh]

Personally I am all for the more land the better. If money was no object I would have a log house built out of cypress. It would last forever with no rotting problems. But without tons of money we had to put doublewides in FL & TX. Couldn't afford a new home in NH so had to buy a 200 yr old one in 1991. Course over the years it would have been cheaper to buy a new one.

Jim

[angelhelp]

We bought our money pit because the front gave a decent view of the park and the street was dead-end. Back in those days, people understood the use of a rake and a broom, as well as the fact that background noise doesn't have to come from a boom box because the birds provide much better choices.

Peace and quiet would be near the top of my "money is no object" list. A reasonable growing season as well as a good winter would be factors in determining location (aside from the obvious ). Having neighbors is one thing, but I don't want 'em so close that I couldn't take a shower in the rain if I felt like it. Having enough space is one thing, but the more land you own, the more border there is to defend. If the neighbors were part of a group, things could work very nicely that way, but it's not always the case for folks.

[mrmike]

oh dreaming......

Old farm house with a barn and a summer kitchen, a root cellar and a spring fed well. Several orchard trees healthy and established. A pond and stream and sizeable wood lot with varying terrain and plenty of wild life. 100 acres would be nice. I just described my parents house short the acreage, they sit on 50. 50 acres seems big but during hunting season I often find my self off the property. I could do without my parents neighbors too, in a perfect world I would buy up their place too

For now I'll settle for my acre and a half in the swamp

[huntinguy]

Running water is great, but a well might be a substitute for live water.

I don't know what kinda terrain you are interested in, but consider using your terrain features, for security defense and privacy.

A five acre clearing in the middle of a tract of woods is not easily accessed by vehicles, but is also easily attacked by hiding in the surrounding woods.

Ideally I'd be on high ground with some trees and an open field of fire, with the entire property bounded by a significant geographical feature, ie a water body, ridge, dry wash etc.

[missasip]

Oct 1, 2013 5:43:08 GMT -7 kutkota said:

Ok, so we are beginning the process of looking at land, well i should say narrowing down what we want in/on the land to begin to look at some land. I know some of you have to day dream about your perfect BOL or plot of land to retreat to when the going gets tough as well as just some place to have to relax and go play at.

My list so far of my wants as well as must haves.....


1. Large area,how large I don't know. I figure roughly and acre for the house and immediate surroundings.
2. I would plan on atleast an acre of garden
3. several acre stocked pond
4. Running stream
5. One "regular" entrance
6. I think I would want the housing location to at least be on a small rise?
7. Barn( I always was a farmer at heart), so figure another acre or so for that
8. seclusion would be high priority
9. I think I would want the majority to be timber with the immediate area surrounding the living area fairly open.

Questions
1. What would be the best( most durable) building material?
2. I am thinking in the 100 ish acre area. This would be a location with several in the extended family contributing to it so the bigger the better I think.

Havn't put a ton of thought into it, just thought I would throw it out there and see what everyone has to say.

Ok if you plan on an acre of garden, that is a lot to manage. Plan on it being tractor/row crop type garden. You start hoeing and hand planting a solid acre, you will needs LOTS of help. Work smart, not hard.

The pond is another issue. In my part of the country, ponds hold water quite well, but in my particular area, you better have someone who knows what they are doing when they build it for you. My neighbor just had a new one built a year ago, wet spring and summer and it's just a mud hole. It's gonna need a clay bed and the dam cored better. And then MAYBE it holds water. Guess what I'm saying, ask and look at surrounding property and how well ponds are doing. Assume 3 years from start of pond construction to catching and eating from it. Have it professionally stocked also, trust me on that one.

Remember that it all is visible from above.

If I were going to build a new full size house and money was not that big a deal I would use nothing but the fairly new construction method of foam blocks that are filled with concrete. Built correctly it withstands 200 mph wind. Is like 50R insolation value. 100 year life span+.
www.google.com/search?q=foam+block+filled+with+concrete&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=B3tLUovPH8i6iwKylYHQAw&ved=0CFIQsAQ&biw=1333&bih=650&dpr=1

The more acres ya got, the more options you have...

Just some thoughts.

Jimmy

[cajunlady87]

I watched a video on an underground bunker built with those foam blocks. It was partitioned with several rooms including a complete bath. Thought it was neat.

[missasip]

Oct 1, 2013 18:54:24 GMT -7 cajunlady87 said:

I watched a video on an underground bunker built with those foam blocks. It was partitioned with several rooms including a complete bath. Thought it was neat.

They built 2 test homes on my lines and they were typical 3BR 2 BA 2000 SQFT homes. Brick exterior, single roof. Less than 600 KWH to maintain them in the summer, less than 350 for the winter. VERY energy mindful.

Jimmy

[woodyz]

Well I have had 30 years of working on the Middle Rocking W thats a W sitting on a big smile but I don't know how to make it on here. SC is the middle rocking W 65A, I started working on a sketch of the property features so I can scan it in and show you why it is retreat #1, TX is the Southern Rocking W 80A (my departed Dads place) its been worked on for 25 years, East TN Rocking W is that five acres surrounded by trees but on high ground w shooting lanes, its only four years old. West TN Rocking W isn't built yet its 40A on high ground with water on three sides I just started on it last year. All sites have standing water (pond or lake) running water (creek or river) and a good well.

Here is what we all should have



Don't get discouraged now, remember, I have had 40 years and and lots of relation help on these, it just worked out I am now the oldest living Rockin W owner left.

Because Rocking W (RW) SC is the oldest site I will use it as a kind of woodyz's retreat idea. Its taken a lot of thought and was bought three different pieces at different times. Its surrounded by water on three side and the top elevations are 400' above the lake flood stage. All but two access areas from the lake are high steep cliffs and both of them are covered from three different shooting areas. Only one way in by road and it is a sweet bottleneck.

First piece is sticking out into the water so it has water on 3 sides and steep banks upto a flat top of dense forest, again with natural shooting lanes and pinch points. Its 40 acres with a pond at the far end and a 15 acre grass field surrounded by thick trees. 8 foot high fence has been added to the natural boundaries to force visitors into pinch points and shooting lanes.

From that when you have two narrow necks of road to either go left or right. Left is an elevated 10 acre grass field surrounds by trees and very very steep banks to the water. The whole nube is 15A.

Right goes to the oldest property and is mainly an easy sloop up to a 400' crest where the back and north side drop to a cliff to the lake. There is a cabin built into the hill about 3/4 to the crest that is now completely overgrown but with shooting lanes. Some people can stand right in front of the house and not see it until we point it out. There are reinforced caves behind the cabin with a exit to the back, but about a 200 foot drop off. Its just a 15 acre hill covered with thick woods with water on three sides.

I think I have water, shelter, food, and security covered very well. Food stored for year+ area to raise garden, grass for goats and rabbits and raise quail and guinea who will be my intruder alerts. won't need to fence the livestock but on one side.

Kind of like a three leaf clover where two of the leaves grow out of a bigger one all surrounded by water on three sides

Ill get a sketch made

[wy21lmb]

Missasip has the right idea, at least it would be for me. Reinforced concrete construction, underground or at least earth bermed. Passive solar. A massive masonry fireplace (Siberian, Finnish or Danish design appropriate to the size of the structure) with a built in cook stove. Exterior is fireproof by design, very little unwanted air infiltration (some would have to be provided for draft for the fireplace and to reduce moisture buildup), stormproof unless build to flood, far more secure than frame construction, can incorporate defensive features into the design, and a whole host of other advantages. The downside is it costs more per square foot to build. On the up side, it will outlast a couple stick built homes. Might as well design and build a passive solar, earth bermed greenhouse as an integral part of the house. A well would be a real advantage, but better have a windmill as at least a backup pump system.

[angelhelp]

These all sound like great ideas. As long as we're dreaming, I want the Grand Canyon in my back yard, not for defense, just because it's the ultimate eye candy for me.

[Ceorlmann]

Are we dreaming? OK.

I'd like a farm that I where I can cultivate enough edible plants and raise enough animals to make it an independent unit. To the side of any fields growing whatever, or letting the cows/horses graze: I'd like a few acres at least of sugar maples, apple trees, pear trees, mulberry trees, spruce/pine trees, etc. On the other side I'd like a range that reaches out a mile depending on what toys are available...


In reality the best bet I have of getting a farm, or orchard territory would be if MoonlightArcher and I inherit her "oma's" (casual German for grandma) orchard property in Maine.

[hunter63]

Starting out with a list of wants is nice, but narrow it down to list of needs first...the wants are extras...LOL

Being brought up in central Wisconsin, in a cottage and tourist area, I had always thought that I would never get sucked into the "Open in the spring, do all the opening and yard work,(week of vacation) summer, have a project of the year (2 weeks of vacation)....then entertain all the cheap relatives that say....."Are you gonna be at your Place on the 23 of July...we want to visit for a week....Ya got the boat in yet?"....Then the shut down in the fall (last week of vacation)

Well, guess what....got sucked into the "Homesteading" thing in the '80....and after looking for a couple of years forum 10 acres, south facing hillside on a good sized river....at a price we could handle.

Parked a travel trailer, hooked up to electric and started working on what and where we would build...

20 some years later we did end up with "The Place" a log cabin on that hill....and have been working on it ever since...well, septic(did have a perc) added 6 more acres...roads,....and up grades to the cabin.
We love it, and hope to move in full time at some point.

Good luck on your search, it can be done.

[woodyz]

Underground I figure you have to worry about flooding, fresh air and earthquakes. Above ground you have to worry about being seen and wind storms so I have tried to cover for both in RW retreat #1

But a nuck or extra heavy attack in the area because of Georgia and SC military sites is still a big concern.

RW West TN I have the New Madrid Fault and Fort Campbell to worry about.

I too think Mississippi has the right idea on building material and it was what I hope to use in W TN but I am thinking more about a combination of silo and geo dome types of construction, at least above ground, I think I could take a 300 MPH wind using those designs taking into consideration the landscape its built on. I also think if I continue the six sided silo type construction underground I would have a better change to survive a fairly large earthquake. Maybe even a sis sided silo type construction flat instead of up right to reduce the stress points. Vertical shafts seem to withstand earthquakes and cave ins better than horizontal ones.

But its harder to get design approvals or trust worthy builders to build out side of approved designs these days. I have been lucky to have had two brother n laws who both own construction companies.

Anyway I am still working out design details for RW W TN

[woodyz]

Here is a good article on this topic.

The Realities Of Choosing Your Survival Retreat Location
Friday, 01 June 2012 02:58 Brandon Smith


Unfortunately, having a ‘Plan B’ just isn’t the modern American way. The great and diabolical misfortune of having two to three solid generations of assumed prosperity in one’s culture is the side-effect it has of lulling the populace into comfortable apathy. “Prepping” becomes a kind of novelty; a lifestyle that people joke about while planning out their next vacation or their next suburban home purchase. It’s something that others consider in that fleeting moment in front of the television while witnessing the news of a catastrophe on the other side of the world, only to be forgotten minutes after changing the channel. Such things do not happen here. Not in the United States…

I am a child of an age laden with illusory wealth, and have benefitted (for a short time at least) from the financial fakery of our economic system, as have many Americans. Most of us have not had to suffer through the unmitigated poverty, hopelessness, and relentless fear that are pervasive in harsher days. All our problems could be cured with money, especially government money, and as long as the greenbacks were flowing, we didn’t care where they came from. Ultimately, though, the ease of our well-to-do welfare kingdom has set us up for a cultural failure of epic proportions. Anytime a society allows itself to be conditioned with dependency, its fate is sealed.

We do not know what crisis really is. Many Americans barely have an inkling of what it entails. We imagine it, in films, in books, and in our own minds, but the fantasy is almost numbing. We lose sight of the tangible grating salty rawness of the worst of things, while imagining ourselves to be “aware”. Most people today are like newborns playing merrily in a pit of wolves.

Preppers, on the other hand, are those who seek to understand what the rest of the public goes out of its way to ignore. They embrace the reality and inevitability of disaster, and suddenly, like magic, they are able to see its oncoming potential where others cannot (or will not). The price they pay for this extended vision, however, is high…

I see the prepper generation as a generation of sacrifice; men and women who must endure the collapse of the façade for the sake of an honorable future society they may not live to experience. Modern day Cassandras? Hopefully not. But, certainly a group of people who have lost much in the path to knowledge. We lose our blissful naivety. That which once easily entertained us becomes banal and meaningless. We set aside many of our dreams to make room for the private and public battle we must wage for the truth. And, in the early days of our awakening, we tend to lose sleep.

The primary advantage of this otherwise complex life is actually simple: we have a ‘Plan B’.

Independence, self sustainability, true community, and redundancy in systems; it’s all in a day’s work for the prepper. But, one thing tends to sit upon our minds above all else, and that subject is ‘home’. Not necessarily the home where we are, but the home where we will shelter during darker days. Call it a retreat, call it a bunker, call it whatever you like, but every prepper has to have that place set aside that gives him the utmost advantage while facing off against calamities that normally annihilate average people.

Choosing a retreat can be easy, or so difficult it explodes your brain depending on how you approach it. The problem I see most often with those seeking a back-up location for a collapse scenario is that they engage the process as if they are still living in 2006, hunting for their McMansion with a view on the sunny hillsides of Colorado or California, instead of thinking in practical terms. So, to help clarify a more fundamental approach to choosing a survival retreat, here is a list of priorities that cannot be overlooked:

Property Placement

You may be searching for a homestead property or a more discreet retreat area for only the most violent disasters. In either case, property placement should be your number one concern. Where is your subject property located? What are the strengths and weaknesses, economically, socially, and legally, in the state you are considering. What is the disposition of the government and law enforcement in the county your retreat resides in? What kind of environment are you surrounding yourself with? These are all very important issues to consider.

Even more important, though, are the dynamics of the land you are choosing. Are you looking for a typical flat piece of developed farmland with easy access to roads and town amenities? Then you are going about this all wrong. Are you purchasing a cabin in the woods where you and your family will be isolated and alone? Again, not very bright.

The ideal retreat location is a combination of rugged terrain and varied topography that is just accessible enough, and set in proximity to like minded neighbors who will aid each other in the advent of a social implosion.

It may feel strange to consider it at first, but try to think in terms of an aggressive party: a looter, a criminal, or just a hungry refugee. Now, take a second look at your retreat selection. Is it easy to wander into? Can a person stroll right up to the front door, or do they really have to spend a lot of time and energy to reach you? Is it within sight of a major highway? Is it in the middle of a funnel or valley which people would naturally take to get to a tempting destination? Is it flat with little cover and concealment, or is it nestled in the midst of hills and crevices which can be used strategically? How many routes in and out of the region are there?

Crops can be grown in any area with any climate if the correct methods are used. Energy can be produced with a multitude of technologies and tools. Structures can be built to adapt to the materials that are most abundant in the region. However, once you commit to a particular environment and terrain type, you are stuck with it for good. Choose wisely.

Community Network

As mentioned in the section above, isolation should NOT be the goal here. The concept of the lone wolf survivalist waiting out the implosion with his family in a secret fortification is not realistic, or likely to work at all. In the most volatile of collapses, such retreats only offer a tempting target for unsavory characters, from Bosnia to Argentina and beyond. If you don’t have a community of preppers around you, you have nothing.

Ideally, choosing a retreat location, especially for a homestead in which you will be living on a day to day basis, should be done with multiple families involved. The more preppers involved, the larger the perimeter of warning and defense, and the safer everyone will be. It is not enough to have a friend or two on the other side of town, or to have a couple neighbors who are open to the subject of collapse but have made no efforts to prep. A return to a true community foundation is the surest way to secure your retreat. There WILL be people who will wish to take what you have in a crisis situation. Your best bet is to surround yourself with people who already have what they need…

In Montana, I have used the idea of “Land Co-Op Groups”, expanding on the barter networking concept to include helping people of like-mind to meet and find property within proximity of each other, or to choose mutual retreat areas where there will be safety in numbers. Explore real estate markets near family members who are on the same wavelength. Talk with existing prepper communities and see if you might work well together. Form your own group of land seekers and make purchases together, saving money for everyone. Know who you will be weathering the storm with!

Defensibility

This has been mentioned in previous sections, but let’s establish what defensibility truly involves. Do the natural features shelter you, or hinder you? How many lanes of sight are near your retreat and will they work to your advantage, or someone else’s? Is your homestead on the top of a wide open hill and visible for miles around? Will attackers exhaust themselves attempting to reach you? How much warning will you have if someone is approaching your location?

Make sure your surroundings work for you. Folds in the land topography not only off greater surface area for your money, but also cover and concealment. Forget about beautiful views, perfect soil, and room for a gazebo. Is the retreat actually protecting you or not? If this single issue is not considered and resolved, nothing else matters.

This is why I recommend starting from scratch with raw land if possible. Many people dislike the notion of building their retreat or homestead from the ground up, claiming that there is not enough time, or that the project will be too costly. This is not necessarily true, especially for those who plan the construction of their retreat around off-grid living strategies. Raw land purchases, depending on the region, can be highly affordable. Building using present materials, like native timber, reduces costs drastically. And, as long as your house plans remain simple, construction can be started and finished within a matter of months.

When building from scratch on raw land you have chosen using the guidelines already discussed, you can place your living quarters in the most advantageous position for defense, while being able to reinforce the home itself as you go. For those using an existing structure, the job becomes a bit more difficult. Additional fortifications will have to be planned carefully to adapt to the framework of the building. Weak areas of the property will have to be strengthened using fences, walls, or strategically placed vegetation that frustrates approach. High points in the terrain should be used to establish observation posts. At every moment of the day or night, someone must be awake to keep an eye on the surroundings. Respect the realities of a collapse, instead of disregarding them, and your chances of success increase a hundred fold.

Water Availability

Many would place water resources at the very top of this list, and having an ample supply is certainly vital. Digging a well is a must. Building in proximity to a stream, river, or lake is even better. That said, rainwater collection is a viable supplement to weaker indigenous water supply, along with water storage done in advance of any event. The average adult human being needs approximately 2.5 liters of water per day to survive comfortably. The common vegetable garden needs around 2” of watering overall per week. Bathing and general hygiene requires several gallons per week depending on how conservative you are. It is important to gauge the water production and storage capacity available at your retreat. If the math does not add up, and if rain collection is not enough to fill the gap, then move on. Find an area that will sustain you with water, but do not neglect the rest of the items on this list just to be near a roaring river…

Food Production

This is an area with far more flexibility than most people seem to realize. With the right methods, a garden can be grown in almost any climate, and at any time of the year, even winter. Every retreat should be fitted with a greenhouse, and this does not require much expense, or even energy to build. Makeshift materials often work wonders and the cheapest greenhouses tend to supply as much produce throughout the year as expensive and professionally built models.

Raised bed gardening is efficient, requiring less water, and producing more food than typical gardens. Small orchards are possible depending on the climate and elevation of the property. Wild edibles in the area should be cataloged. Find out where they grow in abundance, how to cook and prepare them, and which edibles you actually enjoy eating.

Animals require at least some acreage. Two acres being the minimum if you plan to raise several species. Goats, chickens, and rabbits are much easier to squeeze into a smaller parcel than cattle or horses, and draw much less attention to your retreat. A single milk producing cow and a bull, however, have the ability to keep your family healthy and fed for a lifetime. The trade-off is up to the individual prepper. The bottom line is, the number of animals you plan to raise determines the amount of open field you will need to clear on your property to provide the grasses and feeding area they will require.

Proximity To National Forest

Another aspect to consider is how close your property is to national forest areas or unclaimed and unpurchased acreage. Perhaps you are only buying 5 acres of land in a well placed area which borders thousands of acres of forest service. Not only have you purchased the use of 5 acres, but the potential use of thousands of acres through attrition, while guaranteeing that no unpleasant or unaware neighbors will move in too snug next door. Abundant resources will be at your fingertips in a post collapse scenario, including timber, wild game, possible minerals, caching sites, secondary retreat locations, etc. The advantages are numerous…

Secondary Retreat Locations

Never put all your eggs in one basket. We hear that warning all our lives but few take it to heart the way they should. I have dealt with many a prepper who has become indignant at the idea of having to leave his home to escape danger, claiming that they would “rather die” than have to beat feet to a secondary location. I personally don’t get it. Fighting back is admirable, but fighting smart is better. There is nothing wrong with living to die another day, and this is where the multiple retreats strategy comes into play.

Some survivalists live in the city, and have set up a retreat in an area distant but reachable. Others have taken the plunge and uprooted to start a new life on the grounds of their new refuge, leaving behind the metropolis and sometimes even their high paying jobs. In either case, they have done far more for their futures than the average American has even vaguely considered. However, it is not quite enough…

Back-up retreat locations should be chosen in remote areas near your primary retreat, and very few if any people (even friends and associates) should be told about these places. Keep in mind, these are last ditch survival spots. They are not ideal for long term living arrangements. Little if any infrastructure will be built in these places, and all shelter materials should be heavily concealed. Caching sites should be set up well in advance and placed on at least two separate routes to the same location. You should have no worries over whether you will be able to feed, clothe, and protect yourself on the way to the emergency site. Hidden approaches to the area should be scouted ahead of time. A viable water source should be present nearby.

Thinking Ahead: It’s Pure Sanity

There are all kinds of excuses for not doing what needs to be done. Americans have an ingenious knack for rationalizing their own laziness and inaction. If you want to know how to get ahead in the world of prepping, or just the world in general, all you have to do is become a man or woman who makes a plan, and then follows through on it! Welcome to the top ten percent!

One excuse that I do in some instances take seriously is the problem of the conflicting family. We all know a prepper or two whose spouse or children are not on board, ridiculing or even obstructing their efforts. When expenditures of cash (or large expenditures of cash in the case of a property purchase) are in debate, the tensions can be crippling. In every disaster there are oblivious masses which make things hard on those who are aware. From the Great Depression and Weimar Germany, to New Orleans after Katrina, it is not uncommon for people on the verge of starvation and death to still assume that government help is right around the corner and all will be right as rain.

All I can recommend to those struggling with the survival-impaired is that you educate friends and loved ones on the nature of recent events like Katrina, or the economic collapse in Greece and Spain, or the tsunami and subsequent reactor meltdown in Japan. Show them that this is real life, not a cartoon. Make them understand that they are not immune to the tides of catastrophe, and that preparation is not only practical, but essential.

Survivalism is not a product of insanity; it is merely a product of our precarious times. A disaster is only a disaster for people who are not prepared for it. The only madness I see before me in our country today is the madness of those who believe themselves immune to the fall of the curtain. The true “insanity” rests in the minds of men who presume tomorrow will be exactly like today, and that the comfort of their existence is law, a foregone conclusion, set in stone, forever…


You can contact Brandon Smith at: [e-mail]