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Post by ncguy on Feb 19, 2014 17:33:03 GMT -7
I don't think that a solar fence charger would help in a situation like this. Might get an intruder to yell out in pain and get your attention but it would not stop someone in my opinion. We use them to cross fence pastures for the cows but if they really want out they will get out.
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Post by thywar on Feb 19, 2014 18:24:48 GMT -7
I have limitations here at Camp David. First I live alone and the two or three neighbors I have aren't in the best health and are all veterans. The youngest of which is 65 and had cancer last year. I'm 4 minutes from a marina with cabin rentals and RV camping. It will fill up quickly and become disease ridden probably within two weeks from the city folks coming here trying to have water and fish for food. Then they'll come to the top of my hill where we live and that's when the trouble starts. There are only four county deputies on patrol at any time for the whole county. I think most of the Cherokees will go to the tribal HQ. some won't notice any difference as some still live pretty primitive by their own choice.
My county is very rural. Largest town is 15,000 plus 5000 students, at the university. County population is about 27,000. LEOs are county, city, tribal and university. In the past five years (after I WTFU) I've made some really good steps I think. I've learned to grow some food, I've got water filtration capabilities and other preps. There is a church camp at the bottom of the hill and the manager, while older than me seems capable and willing. I've got a nurse and an IT professor that live down the road with their heads clearly buried in the rocks.
So a few things can be done for opsec with a few other possibilities. But there are definitely limitations.....for the new owners once I sell and head to the woods :-)
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Post by ColcordMama on Feb 19, 2014 19:48:37 GMT -7
ooooh you gave me a good idea, Jimmy. How about a moat with a deep mud base? Be pretty difficult to wade across that.
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Post by tjwilhelm on Feb 20, 2014 8:03:08 GMT -7
"...The time to enact the gray man philosophy is now, not after the fact..."
"...Never fool yourself into thinking that you can play “super fortress” and repel attackers..."
Wow! cwi555 and Marc! Great info, in your earlier posts referenced above! This is the kind of useful and thought provoking info/input I was hoping this thread would draw out. Thanks!
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Post by pathwinder14 on Feb 21, 2014 6:41:13 GMT -7
Solar/Electric fence - Nada
Security - Punji traps, trip wires, bear pits, cans on strings, misdirecting trails, obscurity, concealing your "House", living in a cave/hidden cabin in teh woods, large hidey hole.
Long term Bug-in - That is a concept that's hard for me to agree with.
Here's how I define it:
-Bugging out Vs. Bugging in:
Bug in - This could be defined as a short term situation not requiring you to leave, that looks to improve within 24 hours to 10 days. Examples would be breakdown on the side of the road, local power outage, tornado, or small earthquake. Bug in = Short term or not dangerous.
Bugging in keeps you close to family and community. It keeps your house and property safer. It maintains access to local amenities like fire department, police, hospital, city water, etc.
Bug out - This could be defined as either a short term dangerous situation where house/locale is not safe or a long term situation where common amenities of life are no longer available such as power, hospitals, police, and/or the fire department. Examples would include things from forest fire, flood, riots, major earthquakes, to the extremes like nuclear attack, financial collapse, disease outbreak, EMP, war, etc. Bug Out = Long term or Dangerous.
Your situation will determine which course of action to take. Maybe staying put is the best idea like when broke down on a highway. Maybe staying put is not a good idea like a flood. People tend to get their priorities twisted. Look at the prepper T.V. shows. People who bug in long term will eventually run out of supplies. Then what? They have to get more supplies (Read: leave their shelter A.K.A. Bug Out). Bugging in long term makes you a target for crime elements and makes you a crutch for local families. Should disaster strike, I want to get away from the disaster area ASAP.
Life in a population center (city or large town) is only possible because of common amenities. Running water, power, police, fire department, sanitation, grocery stores, and hospitals make all this possible. However, once the common amenities of life are no longer available, large population centers become dangerous. Crimes will occur with no police to call. Fires will rage unchecked with no fire department to call. Diseases will run rampant with no sanitation, medical, or burial facilities available. People will starve because the grocery stores have no food. Water will stagnate in pipes. People will be more hypersensitive, defensive, and agitated. Violence will escalate as people try to survive. Look at the two women who were recently shot during the huge winter storm that hit the south. Comparatively that was just some bad weather.
Bugging out gives you mobility. It also makes you harder to track should you want to remain hidden. It gets you away from the danger area. However it exposes you to the elements. Depending on the situation, bugging out in a vehicle is probably only good enough to get out of the immediate area as roads may be clogged. After that, you may want to ditch the vehicle and go on foot. You are less limited by landscape or traffic and can go into fields and forests. Barring handicaps and health issues, you are the ultimate A.T.V. Carry only what you need. Be mindful of the situation and maintain a course that keeps that situation in mind.
Bugging out can often be better than bugging in. Perhaps you can bug out to another area that is not in trouble. Perhaps you're hit by an earthquake or tornado but can drive to a safer location that has all the ammeneties of life. Perhaps you cannot.
Bugging out to a remote area can be safer. Remote means you can stay hidden from potential enemies. Remote means you will be out of the infection centers and avoid many nasty communicable diseases. Remote means you will be closer to wild game and plants for food. You will not have access to medical help, fire department, police, etc.; but if it was bad enough to make you go remote, those amenneties were gone anyways.
Caveat: people who bug out for short term non dangerous situations are jumping the gun. They are exposing themselves needlessly and carelessly. I only want to rely upon my skills if I need to.
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Post by marc on Feb 21, 2014 7:52:54 GMT -7
Good points to consider, certainly. But I can't agree that long term automatically means bug out, as you've said. Dangerous conditions, yes - get the heck out. But long term - without normal societal functions in place - bugging in is by far the better option for my family.
In my view, it depends on where and how you live before the SHTF.
We've spent hard earned money and a lot of time and labor working toward a pretty decent level of self sufficiency on the family mini ranch/farm. I don't mean to make it sound fancy - it isn't nice to look at because of a lack of funding. (Maybe I'll put up some pictures) But, functionality and privacy is where the effort has been placed. Could it be attacked and overrun? Yes, of course. The nearest town of 980 people is 6 miles away.
But with old-school ranchers surrounding us for miles in every direction, I feel that we are much better off digging in than wandering the country side.
Marc
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 21, 2014 8:45:40 GMT -7
Some other aspects not normally considered with the gray man approach for consideration.
There are few universally accepted aspects of what a gray man is. However it is universally accepted that it is a person that passes through life and this world without significant notice.
That is much more difficult to achieve than most realize.
Take the following text example for instance.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOQOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Without an ascending or descending character (e.g, a, c, e, o instead of q b g j) it lacks contrast needed to stand out. The lone 'Q' above is only noted by it's descender which is additive in a field of otherwise duplicates. Though it is somewhat difficult to note in the first glance, the human brain will have usually noted the additive nature of the Q.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
In the second field, the difference stands out due to the missing letter.
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQOQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
In the last field of letters the inverse is applied. The single 'O' in the field is considered subtractive because it removes the descender but is otherwise the same. The human propensity for pattern recognition makes the mind want to draw something that is not there to complete the pattern.
This is the general idea behind the gray man theory. Both absence, and additives will be noted with moderate to easy effort. The subtractive not so much.
Let's carry the pattern recognition one further.
dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf
dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf
dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf
dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfsobhgf
dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf
dfbjiyfderghuurdiebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf
There are patterns in that noise that the human mind will recognize.
Two of the lines have pattern interruptions. One of them is easy to recognize as it adds some order in the chaos that the mind is drawn too forming the word 'die' on the last line.
However did you notice the o instead of the e fourth line down, fifth from the last letter?
Deliberately induced chaos becomes order with a sufficient sampling. In that noise, slight changes will usually go un-noticed if they are applied in subtractive pattern such as the o verses the e.
The additive change in pattern forming a known word is far more noticeable.
This is something people should keep in mind for any attempt at initialization of the gray man theory.
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Post by pathwinder14 on Feb 21, 2014 9:13:13 GMT -7
Good points to consider, certainly. But I can't agree that long term automatically means bug out, as you've said. Dangerous conditions, yes - get the heck out. But long term - without normal societal functions in place - bugging in is by far the better option for my family. In my view, it depends on where and how you live before the SHTF. We've spent hard earned money and a lot of time and labor working toward a pretty decent level of self sufficiency on the family mini ranch/farm. I don't mean to make it sound fancy - it isn't nice to look at because of a lack of funding. (Maybe I'll put up some pictures) But, functionality and privacy is where the effort has been placed. Could it be attacked and overrun? Yes, of course. The nearest town of 980 people is 6 miles away. But with old-school ranchers surrounding us for miles in every direction, I feel that we are much better off digging in than wandering the country side. Marc Oh I agree totally. That's why I stated one's situation will determine which course of action to take. Since you are already rural, the only thing that would force you to leave is if your area became dangerous (crime/gangs, forest fire, earthquake, tornado, etc.). Others who are in larger population centers are not so far ahead of the game. |
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Post by angelhelp on Feb 22, 2014 9:06:40 GMT -7
Some other aspects not normally considered with the gray man approach for consideration. There are few universally accepted aspects of what a gray man is. However it is universally accepted that it is a person that passes through life and this world without significant notice. That is much more difficult to achieve than most realize. Take the following text example for instance. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOQOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Without an ascending or descending character (e.g, a, c, e, o instead of q b g j) it lacks contrast needed to stand out. The lone 'Q' above is only noted by it's descender which is additive in a field of otherwise duplicates. Though it is somewhat difficult to note in the first glance, the human brain will have usually noted the additive nature of the Q. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO In the second field, the difference stands out due to the missing letter. QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQOQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ In the last field of letters the inverse is applied. The single 'O' in the field is considered subtractive because it removes the descender but is otherwise the same. The human propensity for pattern recognition makes the mind want to draw something that is not there to complete the pattern. This is the general idea behind the gray man theory. Both absence, and additives will be noted with moderate to easy effort. The subtractive not so much. Let's carry the pattern recognition one further. dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfsobhgf dfbjiyfderghuurdeebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf dfbjiyfderghuurdiebhnkjtrfesdzwwgjklpgfscbhgf There are patterns in that noise that the human mind will recognize. Two of the lines have pattern interruptions. One of them is easy to recognize as it adds some order in the chaos that the mind is drawn too forming the word 'die' on the last line. However did you notice the o instead of the e fourth line down, fifth from the last letter? Deliberately induced chaos becomes order with a sufficient sampling. In that noise, slight changes will usually go un-noticed if they are applied in subtractive pattern such as the o verses the e. The additive change in pattern forming a known word is far more noticeable. This is something people should keep in mind for any attempt at initialization of the gray man theory. I'm pretty sure you meant "c". Anywho... to extrapolate this in terms of real life situations... do you mean that the "successful" gray man subtly alters one or two things which is likely to facilitate success/survival? |
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 22, 2014 9:30:34 GMT -7
One or more as needed. Many people change their appearance in subtle and not so subtle manners to fit in. In fact, I'd wager a good amount the vast majority do.
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Post by marc on Feb 22, 2014 15:46:53 GMT -7
For the sake of clarity regarding my posts:
I used the "gray man" term conceptually to describe the simple principle of "blending in" in response to TJ's post about how you would make your house and yard look. TJ's post was about security of your home. Those of you who have met me, know that my physical characteristics make me very identifiable - that's not what I meant.
My point was that I feel strongly that effort should be invested to make your "success" appear to be no better than everyone else around you for the average viewer. And just how hard that is to do.........Fading into the background is great, but as preppers we have no choice but to do things that are not easily made invisible.
For example, you cannot see our large garden from outside the property because it is surrounded and shielded by the house, the barn, the coops and trees. But I can't find an easy way to hide the free ranging (daytime) chickens, turkeys, geese, ducks and guinea's. Let alone the sheep, goats and cows. But, these plants, animals and water well are important for long term self sufficiency planning. The animals and the PV modules for the well pump are the hardest thing to hide. I'm seriously thinking that some digging and building berms may be needed.
How are other folks hiding their resources?
Marc
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 23, 2014 4:16:24 GMT -7
For the sake of clarity regarding my posts: I used the "gray man" term conceptually to describe the simple principle of "blending in" in response to TJ's post about how you would make your house and yard look. TJ's post was about security of your home. Those of you who have met me, know that my physical characteristics make me very identifiable - that's not what I meant. My point was that I feel strongly that effort should be invested to make your "success" appear to be no better than everyone else around you for the average viewer. And just how hard that is to do.........Fading into the background is great, but as preppers we have no choice but to do things that are not easily made invisible. For example, you cannot see our large garden from outside the property because it is surrounded and shielded by the house, the barn, the coops and trees. But I can't find an easy way to hide the free ranging (daytime) chickens, turkeys, geese, ducks and guinea's. Let alone the sheep, goats and cows. But, these plants, animals and water well are important for long term self sufficiency planning. The animals and the PV modules for the well pump are the hardest thing to hide. I'm seriously thinking that some digging and building berms may be needed. How are other folks hiding their resources? Marc You have just struck upon one of the more obscure points for prepping. While obscure, it's no less important, and in some respects, could be 'the' most important one. People make list, lay in supplies, plan, train, etc, all in A-Z fashion. Bug out bags, bug out locations, you name it, there is a plan out there for all of it. Where are the seams between these plans? Where does one get dropped, and the other implemented? Do our bug out bags take into account what we have at our BOL, and if we cannot reach our BOL at the same time? Do our defenses take into account attacks from within for a member of your group that has flipped out? Does it take into account wildlife, the local zoo animals, hungry packs of dogs? Live stock will be a target, how do you keep it silent? Have you planned the acoustics of where they sit day and night so that no one will home in on them via their sound? Have you taken this into account for your BOL? Home? I could go on for a month of Sundays on that. Is your prepping plan as a whole, organic and holistic? That is the cognitive point. For an A-Z plan, can you insert R in lieu of A or D in lieu of Z and still be ok? |
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Post by thywar on Feb 23, 2014 6:23:57 GMT -7
My answer is no. Absolutely not. Not due to lack of want or knowledge (although more of that is required). But due to lack of resources.... Money, land, equipment and capability to construct. So I do what I can, prep for what I expect I'll need, lock and load and hope for the best
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Post by angelhelp on Feb 23, 2014 7:14:23 GMT -7
Since none of us has infinite resources, I don't see how anyone could be properly and fully prepared for "anything". Everyone in the group would have to reach close to the level of expertise of each "expert" who is included in the group partly because of that specific knowledge/skill. You can cross-train everyone, but the one expert in a given area could be the one who suddenly cannot cope. That same expert could be the one person with the experience needed to improvise something (that suddenly becomes essential to the group) based on his/her knowledge/skill. Another member with different long-term-skills could posit a solution, but it could require the knowledge/skills of the expert to enact it. An example would be a surgeon in the group suddenly cannot cope when his/her only child is critically injured during an attack. The EMT in the group can only cope with the injury to a point, but the surgeon realizes that the child will slowly die from the trauma, despite his/her best efforts. Another group member with similar but less severe injury may not survive if the surgeon cannot cope because the trauma surpasses the EMT's abilities. To have both a surgeon and an EMT in a group isn't impossible, but most of us aren't blessed this way. How many of us have the option of multiple BOLs? How many of us have sufficient water and food stored as to be able to freely relinquish one or more BOLs in the event of its destruction or takeover? Do we have a sufficient body of knowledge within our group to repair the shelter(s) at the BOL, grow sufficient food in a variety of conditions, recognize early signs of infection/illness and have knowledge to treat these while treatment will be effective, repair vehicle(s) to facilitate escape/evasion as needed? Are we able to withstand a "professional"  home invasion? My own answer to these rhetorical questions is that no one or group can ever be fully prepared. Resources might be lacking, knowledge/skills might be insufficient, but there will always be another scenario that creates the awareness of an additional need/change/plan. We can do our best with what we have, improvise beyond that, and pray always. |
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Post by marc on Feb 23, 2014 13:36:01 GMT -7
I do agree with all of the comments you guys made. The point is to have a bunch of ideas to draw on, so that you can use the concepts that fit your situation.
I will start posting a few pictures of our setup, so you can see that it's all about functionality and not beauty. (Maybe I'll claim that it looks bad on purpose as camouflage - but that would be BS) I'll bet that we are not as self sufficient as Dink's place - because of how much Dink knows!
No, I'm not worried about security on the internet because the place really isn't anything special - and you have to pass a whole lot of low hanging fruit in order to get to our place. Any, and every place around us obviously has more than we do - while we are more obscure.
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home invasion?
