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Post by solargeek1 on Feb 23, 2014 14:25:22 GMT -7
I do agree with all of the comments you guys made. The point is to have a bunch of ideas to draw on, so that you can use the concepts that fit your situation. Any, and every place around us obviously has more than we do - while we are more obscure. Marc, CWI and TJ, how would we utilize and yet hide our solar array? We put it next to the house, but in order to have total sun, it is not hidden completely from the road. It is 100' long on racking. To block out our homestead from the roadway, (there is a natural cleaing of about 200')we have now planted 30 pines (all 6' or higher) some real fast growing as close to the road as allowed. Rest of site is fully wooded and we put our pole barn blocking the main "viewing" area. My thought is to build a 10' -15' tall vertical wall of cattle fencing with either vining climbing up or hops (for beer making!) or grapes (wine making!) and maybe espaliered pear or apple trees. We could explain it away as not wanting to see the array from the house (for now so people don't get what we are doing). It would take a few years to fill in. But it would be physically pretty, dense and not block the solar to the array at all. We could use piping for the supports and then let the vining cover that up. What do you think? |
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Post by ColcordMama on Feb 23, 2014 14:54:13 GMT -7
Plant Scarlet Runner beans at the base of that fencing every year. They grow really fast up to 10 feet tall or more, produce beautiful red flowers that are followed prolifically by beans that can get a foot long and are delicious cooked like green beans when young, or let mature and shell and you have large maroon and tan speckled beans that dry very well and cook up into a pot of beans to rival any other. You can also grow smaller melons (cantaloupe varieties) up the fence, just make sure you sling any developing fruits by making a hamnmock out of old nylons so the melons can hang securely as they ripen. Both these plants grow fast and make pretty good screens, they can be grown together for even better screening for a season, and you're producing lots of good food.
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Post by tjwilhelm on Feb 23, 2014 15:06:48 GMT -7
I do agree with all of the comments you guys made. The point is to have a bunch of ideas to draw on, so that you can use the concepts that fit your situation. Any, and every place around us obviously has more than we do - while we are more obscure. Marc, CWI and TJ, how would we utilize and yet hide our solar array? We put it next to the house, but in order to have total sun, it is not hidden completely from the road. It is 100' long on racking. To block out our homestead from the roadway, (there is a natural cleaing of about 200')we have now planted 30 pines (all 6' or higher) some real fast growing as close to the road as allowed. Rest of site is fully wooded and we put our pole barn blocking the main "viewing" area. My thought is to build a 10' -15' tall vertical wall of cattle fencing with either vining climbing up or hops (for beer making!) or grapes (wine making!) and maybe espaliered pear or apple trees. We could explain it away as not wanting to see the array from the house (for now so people don't get what we are doing). It would take a few years to fill in. But it would be physically pretty, dense and not block the solar to the array at all. We could use piping for the supports and then let the vining cover that up. What do you think? solargeek1 -- I have the same concern at my place. Sadly, if you totally hide it you essentially make it non-functional. I'm also planning to put up a small wind genny; but, this is even more difficult to disguise! The only thought I've had is to live without electricity when times are very dangerous. Still trying to find another option; but, no brilliant ideas as yet. Anyone else have thoughts on this? |
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 23, 2014 15:19:24 GMT -7
My answer is no. Absolutely not. Not due to lack of want or knowledge (although more of that is required). But due to lack of resources.... Money, land, equipment and capability to construct. So I do what I can, prep for what I expect I'll need, lock and load and hope for the best My post was not about resources, it was the thought behind what resources you do have, and their intended use. I am unclear where it became about resources, but rest assured, that couldn't be further from the point. No one person on this planet has the resources to defeat 'all' threats. I would sincerely hope that you didn't believe I thought that? |
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 23, 2014 15:33:03 GMT -7
Marc, CWI and TJ, how would we utilize and yet hide our solar array? We put it next to the house, but in order to have total sun, it is not hidden completely from the road. It is 100' long on racking. To block out our homestead from the roadway, (there is a natural cleaing of about 200')we have now planted 30 pines (all 6' or higher) some real fast growing as close to the road as allowed. Rest of site is fully wooded and we put our pole barn blocking the main "viewing" area. My thought is to build a 10' -15' tall vertical wall of cattle fencing with either vining climbing up or hops (for beer making!) or grapes (wine making!) and maybe espaliered pear or apple trees. We could explain it away as not wanting to see the array from the house (for now so people don't get what we are doing). It would take a few years to fill in. But it would be physically pretty, dense and not block the solar to the array at all. We could use piping for the supports and then let the vining cover that up. What do you think? solargeek1 -- I have the same concern at my place. Sadly, if you totally hide it you essentially make it non-functional. I'm also planning to put up a small wind genny; but, this is even more difficult to disguise! The only thought I've had is to live without electricity when times are very dangerous. Still trying to find another option; but, no brilliant ideas as yet. Anyone else have thoughts on this?   roof panelsThere are ways to make your home look normal from satellite or even from the street. Unless your looking closely at some of these systems, you could never tell. Put them on outbuildings just off center so they don't glint. It can be done. |
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Post by marc on Feb 23, 2014 16:47:16 GMT -7
My approach would be to live with the lower output from an array partially shielded from the sun. The restricted angle approach is actually very workable these days due to the low cost of PV. I have helped some customer’s lay out their systems with this in mind. (The cost of PV modules is 10% of what it was when I got into the business.) Think in terms of what TJ said: "live without electricity when times are very dangerous" - BUT modify it! There is a wonderful, wide middle ground between everything and nothing....... Somewhere between "nothing" and "full electric power" might be to only expose your array to the world during specific times. OK, this might produce only 10%-40% of what you are used to, but it's a far cry better than ZERO. If your freezer needs "X" watts per day, set yourself up with enough PV to get "X" in the number of hours that your design provides. Example: Think of a little bit of digging to create berms as shields. If you have low and high spots on your land, use them to your advantage. Sure, from a solar engineering perspective that's terrible, but the incoming product of solar energy is free and just keeps flowing in, after the initial investment. - A prepper might install enough panels to get what they need with extremely limited solar input for their almost hidden array. - A prepper might deploy a reduced height tilt-up/crank-up tower to scavenge what wind they could get at night. (Back to the 10% is better than 0% thought process) Yes, I know that with Northern latitudes, my approach with solar could end up with near zero solar input in winter. Yes, I know that in areas without much wind, the lowered height of the turbine will end up producing close to zero. My point was to remind people to think about what IS possible with less than optimum results. And by the way: choosing to live in lower latitudes just might have some advantages in terms of sun angle, temperature and growing season!  Marc |
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 23, 2014 18:18:41 GMT -7
I do agree with all of the comments you guys made. The point is to have a bunch of ideas to draw on, so that you can use the concepts that fit your situation. Any, and every place around us obviously has more than we do - while we are more obscure. Marc, CWI and TJ, how would we utilize and yet hide our solar array? We put it next to the house, but in order to have total sun, it is not hidden completely from the road. It is 100' long on racking. To block out our homestead from the roadway, (there is a natural cleaing of about 200')we have now planted 30 pines (all 6' or higher) some real fast growing as close to the road as allowed. Rest of site is fully wooded and we put our pole barn blocking the main "viewing" area. My thought is to build a 10' -15' tall vertical wall of cattle fencing with either vining climbing up or hops (for beer making!) or grapes (wine making!) and maybe espaliered pear or apple trees. We could explain it away as not wanting to see the array from the house (for now so people don't get what we are doing). It would take a few years to fill in. But it would be physically pretty, dense and not block the solar to the array at all. We could use piping for the supports and then let the vining cover that up. What do you think? How much space can you devote to blocking those panels from view? I.E. we know it's 100 feet long, but how many feet in front of it all to the nearest obstruction? Any potential for side viewing/rear viewing? |
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 23, 2014 18:37:24 GMT -7
How are other folks hiding their resources? Marc Sometimes under their proverbial noses is a good idea. poly rock There is a lot of empty space in those fake rocks. |
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Post by thywar on Feb 23, 2014 19:16:27 GMT -7
Those are very cool. Great idea and realistic looking. Trivia note: the music is the theme song to 'The Saint' starring Roger Moore  ? |
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Post by tjwilhelm on Feb 23, 2014 20:49:53 GMT -7
Huge, fake rocks? VERY cool, indeed!
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Post by solargeek1 on Feb 23, 2014 23:19:21 GMT -7
"CWI said:
How much space can you devote to blocking those panels from view? I.E. we know it's 100 feet long, but how many feet in front of it all to the nearest obstruction? Any potential for side viewing/rear viewing?"
The street is on the east, the pole barn faces west, the house and then the solar array face due south. Between the house and solar array is at least 100' and it, like the house is set into some trees but none that shade it. We face a 2 acre pond so the house and array are open to the south.
Because the road rises up next to our property as it continues up a hill, we built the pole barn there to make it very hard to see the house in the quick time they have (speed limit is 55 so they are zooming by). House distance from road is probably 800', and so array is 900' feet away from the start.
The more I think about this vertical plant wall, the better I like it. It would almost completely block the view from the road. The vertical green wall would so blend in with the surrounding trees and prairie greenery around the pond.
But, If you come up our long drive (which loops through the woods), as you get to the pole barn, both house and array are 500' in front of you to the west. No way to hide it from those on the drive.
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 24, 2014 10:31:03 GMT -7
"CWI said: How much space can you devote to blocking those panels from view? I.E. we know it's 100 feet long, but how many feet in front of it all to the nearest obstruction? Any potential for side viewing/rear viewing?" The street is on the east, the pole barn faces west, the house and then the solar array face due south. Between the house and solar array is at least 100' and it, like the house is set into some trees but none that shade it. We face a 2 acre pond so the house and array are open to the south. Because the road rises up next to our property as it continues up a hill, we built the pole barn there to make it very hard to see the house in the quick time they have (speed limit is 55 so they are zooming by). House distance from road is probably 800', and so array is 900' feet away from the start. The more I think about this vertical plant wall, the better I like it. It would almost completely block the view from the road. The vertical green wall would so blend in with the surrounding trees and prairie greenery around the pond. But, If you come up our long drive (which loops through the woods), as you get to the pole barn, both house and array are 500' in front of you to the west. No way to hide it from those on the drive. Was probably thinking too outside the box but here it is anyway. The height specified (arrays), was 14 feet. The goal was to mask/hide the array. In your local I would have been inclined to create a fake hill. A berm surrounding the array starting 50 feet out rising to 15 feet at its edge. It would give a slope grade of 30 degrees at a ratio of 3:10. Properly landscaped, it would appear from any direction on the ground as a hill due to restricted viewing angle. There is nothing to be done for viewing from the air and still save use of the array. If I had to do it today, it would be physically roof tiles on a 'chicken coup' building or other such structures. The secondary benefit of that is infrared masking. The emissivity ratio of pv cells runs in the neighborhood of .85-.9 (as determined by a grey body Stefano-BoltzMann law) depending on physical material they are built from. Which btw, the glass faced models range up to .98. What that means is it would take a very significant heat source for an IR camera to pick up anything. Probably over thinking it, but there it is. |
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Post by pathwinder14 on Feb 24, 2014 11:19:22 GMT -7
The only thought I've had is to live without electricity when times are very dangerous. Still trying to find another option; but, no brilliant ideas as yet. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Yep...live without electricity. When we think about electricity, what do we really need it for? Lights, refridgeration, A.C., heat, and communication? Honestly, those are luxuries we think of as necessities. Fire (candles and lanterns) can provide light. Zeer pots and root cellars can provide modest refridgeration (salt or smoke anything you can't keep cool enough). A dip in a lake or stream can provide personal cooling. Fires obviously can provide heat. Communication was achieved very well with lots of innovations well before electricity. Look at the mile (and half mile) castles of Hadrian's Wall. With fires they could send messages up and down the wall within minutes. What do we (Humans) really need electricity for? |
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Post by Cwi555 on Feb 26, 2014 3:09:08 GMT -7
The only thought I've had is to live without electricity when times are very dangerous. Still trying to find another option; but, no brilliant ideas as yet. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Yep...live without electricity. When we think about electricity, what do we really need it for? Lights, refridgeration, A.C., heat, and communication? Honestly, those are luxuries we think of as necessities. Fire (candles and lanterns) can provide light. Zeer pots and root cellars can provide modest refridgeration (salt or smoke anything you can't keep cool enough). A dip in a lake or stream can provide personal cooling. Fires obviously can provide heat. Communication was achieved very well with lots of innovations well before electricity. Look at the mile (and half mile) castles of Hadrian's Wall. With fires they could send messages up and down the wall within minutes. What do we (Humans) really need electricity for? Why do humans need technology beyond primitive tool's, and do they need even that?. Without electricity, 4 billion or so of the 7.1 billion people on the planet die within 5 years and that is giving liberal benefit of the doubt. The day electricity dies; there will be no more electric water pumps, gas pumps, gas to guide shipping and farm equipment (no fuel for either as well). Hospitals, mass production of medicines, etc cease. Food delivery ceases to cities (over ~3.9 billion of the world's population live in urban to city environment), of which they would have to learn the art of growing food in concrete rather fast. I could go on with a litany of needs, but you should get the picture now. Bottom line is, electricity represents a force multiplier for individuals and societies alike. Both societies and the individual can accomplish more with it, than without it. |
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Post by pathwinder14 on Feb 26, 2014 6:55:31 GMT -7
Yep...live without electricity. When we think about electricity, what do we really need it for? Lights, refridgeration, A.C., heat, and communication? Honestly, those are luxuries we think of as necessities. Fire (candles and lanterns) can provide light. Zeer pots and root cellars can provide modest refridgeration (salt or smoke anything you can't keep cool enough). A dip in a lake or stream can provide personal cooling. Fires obviously can provide heat. Communication was achieved very well with lots of innovations well before electricity. Look at the mile (and half mile) castles of Hadrian's Wall. With fires they could send messages up and down the wall within minutes. What do we (Humans) really need electricity for? Why do humans need technology beyond primitive tool's, and do they need even that?. Without electricity, 4 billion or so of the 7.1 billion people on the planet die within 5 years and that is giving liberal benefit of the doubt. The day electricity dies; there will be no more electric water pumps, gas pumps, gas to guide shipping and farm equipment (no fuel for either as well). Hospitals, mass production of medicines, etc cease. Food delivery ceases to cities (over ~3.9 billion of the world's population live in urban to city environment), of which they would have to learn the art of growing food in concrete rather fast. I could go on with a litany of needs, but you should get the picture now. Bottom line is, electricity represents a force multiplier for individuals and societies alike. Both societies and the individual can accomplish more with it, than without it. Oops! I must admit, when I wrote my reply it was off the cuff and I was only thinking of Humanity as a species, not as individuals who need medicines or hospitals. That was hubris on my part. I apologize for that obvious oversight. However it must also be said that we are too quick to rely upon our technologies and become over dependent upon them. Look at Bitcoin and the problems Mt. Gox is facing. So much money has been stolen that I begin to ask why would people rely upon it? Look at cell phones and tablets. How many people's worlds crumble when their technology fails them? Is not electricity just one more technological convenience? It too can fail. I do not revel in the possibility of that failure. I do not wish it. Yet, I don't worry about it's immediate impact upon my family either. I worry...about the chaos it would cause. |
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