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Post by Cwi555 on Mar 29, 2020 23:29:45 GMT -7
www.foxnews.com/media/doctor-david-price-coronavirusThat seems to be a recurring theme among Doctors. Which btw, an airplane, bus, or car certainly fits the description of a "very closed room." Especially airplanes and cruise ship cabins that share ventilation. I cannot scream loud enough that everyone has lied over and over about "MASKS AREN'T NEEDED BY THE HEALTHY." YES they are when having to go out to get food for elderly or the family we help. Or when our FIL or Mom go out during the designated hours -- failure of grocery delivery is ongoing in Milwauke, Florida, California and Chicago of necessities and refrigerated foods. So they have to go out. And they should be able to get and wear MASKs.
Masks should go to 1st reponders YES but since I had the foresight to buy a few (and I mean just a few) for DH and me, we have them for the times we need them. COSTCO, and other large grocery stores which are well ventilated, it is unlikely it will aersolize intensely enough to infect if you are keeping your social distance at all times. But with a mask, it would also keep you from touching your face!
I have such a long rant in my heart over this final issue but I have to stop now. Currently available data doesn't support that position. Training tells me a mask assures contact with your face for people not used to nor trained for wearing a mask. They are wont to adjust the mask as it moves around their face from a poor fit. Men in particular have a problem with mask fit. If they do not stay clean shaven, the mask loses contact with the face, decreasing its protection. Afternoon stubble is in some ways worse than a full beard. While we don't have complete data available for Covid-19, we do have reams of data on previous viruses. We have the size, form factor, and now some hard data on transmission vectors regarding Covid-19. The idea that low risk areas, and low risk persons need a mask 24/7 is not true according to that data. What constitutes high risk persons and locations is becoming clearer by the day. One high risk location in particular stands out. Closed areas with common ventilation. Our military is figuring this out the hard way. Already there is an aircraft carrier that was forced to divert from its mission for that reason. www.navytimes.com/news/coronavirus/2020/03/26/in-the-pacific-a-covid-19-outbreak-sidelines-a-deployed-aircraft-carrier/I don't know how much you know about their designs, but large portions of crew spaces share ventilation, not to mention how packed the crew are in relation to each other. After the TR being sidelined, I won't be the least surprised if NBC wartime operation plans are rolled out. High risk persons are the elderly, infirm, and persons with any respiratory conditions. High risk occupations are medical and emergency services workers. High risk areas are any spaces which share common ventilation systems, and or designed for extended periods of occupation of transient persons. For any of those three, eye protection, mask, and gloves are needed. For low risk areas and persons, the primary need is gloves and hand face discipline. I'm always open to learning, if anyone has any reliable source that counters any of what I said, I'd definitely be interested in seeing it.
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Post by cowgirlup on Mar 30, 2020 13:10:49 GMT -7
I'm with SG on the mask issue. I realize some people are not using them properly. But with a virus like this where people can be contagious without symptoms, and that is definitely airborne anything that can minimize your risk is worth the effort. Early studies indicated that virus breathed directly into the lungs resulted in a worse infection rather than touch contamination. If that has changed I didn't see any info about it.
Also, one Dr. on YouTube mentioned the amount of virus also played a part in how severe of an illness you would get. Grocery store employees are now becoming sick. I don't think you can rule out any precautions with this. WHO mentions wearing masks in public. Even though some are better than others something is better than nothing.
I think it's irresponsible for TPTB to imply masks don't work but should be given to all the front line medical workers. A local dentist gave all his surgical masks to his wife (nurse) to take to work. Why if they don't do anything to help? Yet if people had been encouraged to wear or make masks a bet a lot of the spread would have been minimized resulting in less people needing medical treatment in the first place.
I wear a surgical style mask and eye protection to the grocery store. It's not and airtight seal but keeps me from breathing in a direct hit and hopefully filters out some of the harmful things.
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Post by Cwi555 on Mar 30, 2020 13:39:45 GMT -7
As long as a person is practicing hand face discipline, wearing a mask won't hurt. However, every scrap of data I can find doesn't support the premise that it is required by all. To each their own beliefs I guese.
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Post by crashdive123 on Mar 31, 2020 4:34:32 GMT -7
One of the issues with masks and gloves is that they may give the untrained user a false sense of security. I know that isn't the case for most here. Here's what I mean. Some think a mask and gloves make them invincible......they do not. Most have no idea how to properly remove them which, because of that feeling of invincibility, may be contaminated. Without properly removing contaminated PPE, the individual it was designed to protect becomes contaminated. How long is that individual that is wearing the gloves and mask at the grocery store wearing them? Are they being reused? I'd venture a guess that many are. Much of my training during my military career involved PPE. As has been stressed.....wash often, don't touch your face. Stay home if you can. If you have to go out be as safe as you can.
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Post by cowgirlup on Mar 31, 2020 6:35:14 GMT -7
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Post by Cwi555 on Mar 31, 2020 7:16:51 GMT -7
nnf.mit.edu/researchwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2843952/I'm going to be blunt here. The guy is an idiot. The research he is 'quoting' is nothing new. He and the Washington Post should be ashamed for putting up such crap. In fact, the reason you clean your hands after touching a surface is because of the 'low concentration' as defined by the linked science, is the primary reason anything ever gets on a surface to begin with. Secondary reasons are other bodily fluids such as sweat. However, respiratory viruses primarily come from respiration. Once again: High risk persons are the elderly, infirm, and persons with any respiratory conditions. High risk occupations are medical and emergency services workers. High risk areas are any spaces which share common ventilation systems, and or designed for extended periods of occupation of transient persons. Read Crash's comment regarding a false sense of security. It especially applies to DIY mask.
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Post by solargeek1 on Mar 31, 2020 7:41:09 GMT -7
As long as a person is practicing hand face discipline, wearing a mask won't hurt. However, every scrap of data I can find doesn't support the premise that it is required by all. To each their own beliefs I guese. BTW, I never meant to give the impression all people needed masks all the time. But with the idiots in Central WI still saying "it's just the flu" (ignoring all the media, local and national and our state's infection totals which keep mounting), if I go to the store, or get gas or go to church, unless and until I see SD (social distancing) actually being practiced, I am wearing a mask (and my fleece gloves (it's still really cold here) which I can wash after every use.) I spent from 12/2/19-2/15/20 with a terrible disabling cough. Pulmonologist could not find a reason after CT and tests but the good news was NO COPD or asthma or infection (by the time I got into see him). Between that and the hit my sternum and lungs took in the accident in August, I still have pain. SO I consider myself in one of Cwi555 's categories.
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Post by cowgirlup on Mar 31, 2020 9:32:31 GMT -7
www.timesofisrael.com/how-does-the-coronavirus-enter-the-body-and-what-makes-it-so-dangerous/The virus circulates through droplets in the air spread by coughing or sneezing, and enters the body through the mouth, eyes or nose. It can remain viable on surfaces for hours to days, and may be able to enter the lungs directly when inhaled. After entering the body, the virus spreads to the back of the nasal passage and to mucous membranes in the throat, attaching to the body’s cell receptors. Hand washing is great to reduce some exposure. Especially if you're likely to rub your eyes or bite your nails. But it seems the main source of transmission is that it is airborne and breathed in. In that case it only makes sense to me that a mask of some sort would reduce the exposure. If everyone wore one then it would also reduce the spread. Eliminate? No. Will everyone do it perfectly ? No. Would it hurt to do it? Only if you are afraid you look silly. www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.htmlThird, of course masks work — maybe not perfectly and not all to the same degree, but they provide some protection. Their use has always been advised as part of the standard response to being around infected people, especially for people who may be vulnerable. World Health Organization officials wear masks during their news briefings.
I strongly believe that if the US had a large supply of masks of any type then they would be telling people to wear them just like most Asian countries. But we don't and they are never going to admit that. It's better to point out the flaws instead of any possible benefit to save face. Like anything else it's a personal choice. If you want to wear a mask, or a bandana or whatever when you go out it's ultimately your own health risk and no one else's.
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Post by solargeek1 on Mar 31, 2020 20:35:53 GMT -7
Interestingly: Fauci says he might recommend wearing masks if it doesn't affect hospitals' supply From CNN's Michael Nedelman
Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said he would "lean towards" recommending that the general public wear face masks "if we do not have the problem of taking away masks from the health care workers who need them.”
During a taping for tomorrow’s “Coronavirus: Fact vs. Fiction” podcast, Fauci told CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta that face masks would be a "subject of conversation" at a White House briefing later that day.
"Particularly now that we're getting some inklings that there's transmission of infection from an asymptomatic person who is not coughing, who is not sneezing, who just appears well. Well, then how do you think that's happening?" Fauci said. "It very well could be aerosol. Maybe not aerosol, you know, that goes on for hours. But even the slight aerosol in which you're talking to somebody. If that's the case, we should at least look at the data and try to make a decision about that.” Despite a lack of conclusive evidence that masks prevent transmission of respiratory diseases, some experts have argued that non-medical fabric masks might make a dent in transmission risk.
Throughout the pandemic so far, the World Health Organization and US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have advised against the general public's use of masks unless they are already sick.
"Something doesn't have to be 100% effective to be beneficial," Fauci said. Ok this is me - this was exactly my point
At yesterday's White House Task Force briefing, President Trump said, "We are not going to be wearing masks forever, but it could be for a short period of time after we get back into gear. I could see something like that happening for a period of time.”
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Post by cowgirlup on Apr 1, 2020 7:35:15 GMT -7
Interestingly: Fauci says he might recommend wearing masks if it doesn't affect hospitals' supply From CNN's Michael Nedelman Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said he would "lean towards" recommending that the general public wear face masks "if we do not have the problem of taking away masks from the health care workers who need them.” During a taping for tomorrow’s “Coronavirus: Fact vs. Fiction” podcast, Fauci told CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta that face masks would be a "subject of conversation" at a White House briefing later that day. "Particularly now that we're getting some inklings that there's transmission of infection from an asymptomatic person who is not coughing, who is not sneezing, who just appears well. Well, then how do you think that's happening?" Fauci said. "It very well could be aerosol. Maybe not aerosol, you know, that goes on for hours. But even the slight aerosol in which you're talking to somebody. If that's the case, we should at least look at the data and try to make a decision about that.” Despite a lack of conclusive evidence that masks prevent transmission of respiratory diseases, some experts have argued that non-medical fabric masks might make a dent in transmission risk. Throughout the pandemic so far, the World Health Organization and US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have advised against the general public's use of masks unless they are already sick. "Something doesn't have to be 100% effective to be beneficial," Fauci said. Ok this is me - this was exactly my pointAt yesterday's White House Task Force briefing, President Trump said, "We are not going to be wearing masks forever, but it could be for a short period of time after we get back into gear. I could see something like that happening for a period of time.” I guess they didn't trust the info coming out of China and other countries. Because the information about asymptomatic and super spreaders has been out there for a while. Even the fact that someone can be contagious long before they show symptoms was already known.
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Post by mud on Apr 2, 2020 11:45:32 GMT -7
Well, they banned us from riding in our tool truck together at work, one person per table on break, no two people within six feet of each other ( we work in two man teams) but still no temp monitors or masks. Oh and 4 employees being tested...go figure.
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Post by solargeek1 on Apr 2, 2020 12:27:00 GMT -7
I think Cwi555 put up some info on this but here is a 4/2/20 article summarizing that although the virus "came" from bats that was because the scientists were playing around with it in a lab in Wuhan. www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/disappeared-chinese-research-paper-traced-covid-19-to-china-biolab-in-wuhan"Sorry, China, but your own scientists, Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao, who work for the state-run South China University of Technology, make quick work of this story. First, they point out that there are no known colonies of this species of bat within 900 kilometers—that’s 560 miles—of Wuhan. Second, they diligently interviewed 59 people with connections to Wuhan and each and every one confirmed that there were no Horseshoe Bats being sold there. So how did the bats, and the viruses carried by the bats, get to Wuhan? They were carried there by humans, of course. Bill Gertz has documented how China researchers were extracting and studying deadly bat coronaviruses in two Wuhan biolabs. Gertz writes that “Several Chinese state media outlets in recent months touted the virus research and lionized in particular a key researcher in Wuhan, Tian Junhua, as a leader in bat virus work. … A video posted online in December and funded by the Chinese government shows Mr. Tian inside caves in Hubei province taking samples from captured bats and storing them in vials.”
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Post by cowgirlup on Apr 3, 2020 8:42:22 GMT -7
www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/02/24/expert-chinese-scientists-sell-lab-animals-meat-black-market/I can't find the first article I saw but this one also mentions it. New Chinese guidelines for the wet markets specifically mentioned lab animals were no longer allowed to be sold in the markets. So obviously if they made a rule about it then it was happening. That finally connected the dots for me as to how these things were coming out of China. It never made sense to me that these things just happened in nature and they always come from China.
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Post by crashdive123 on Apr 4, 2020 4:24:08 GMT -7
www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/02/24/expert-chinese-scientists-sell-lab-animals-meat-black-market/I can't find the first article I saw but this one also mentions it. New Chinese guidelines for the wet markets specifically mentioned lab animals were no longer allowed to be sold in the markets. So obviously if they made a rule about it then it was happening. That finally connected the dots for me as to how these things were coming out of China. It never made sense to me that these things just happened in nature and they always come from China. I saw or read a news story several weeks ago that the labs that experimented on animals sold them to the wet markets when they were done experimenting. It's no wonder that this hasn't happened earlier.
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Post by woodyz on Apr 10, 2020 13:04:47 GMT -7
social distance
wear masks
whatever works for you/makes you feel better/the law requires/recommends
I'm staying home, wearing a mask when buying food, no other public activity, not even Dr. visits, washing my hands, and my food, that isn't boiled or fried.
It will be over soon, if the panic doesn't hit first.
I'm glad I live in a sparely populated area, that's on purpose and this kind of thing is why.
If the zombies come I'll shoot them and if no-body is picking them up, I'll burn the bodies.
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